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DAREDEVIL #23 Preview, Reviews and Discussion
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What did you think of DAREDEVIL #23?
5
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 0%  [ 0 ]
4
44%
 44%  [ 4 ]
3
33%
 33%  [ 3 ]
2
11%
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1
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Total Votes : 9

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Kuljit Mithra
Lowlife


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1437
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:55 pm    Post subject: DAREDEVIL #23 Preview, Reviews and Discussion Reply with quote

DAREDEVIL #23 by Soule, Morgan and Milla (and a variant by Jim Lee) ships July 5th.
Here's the cover:



http://www.manwithoutfear.com/gallery/Daredevil-V5-023

Please use this thread for all discussion next week!
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Mike Murdock
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Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like Legal. He's interesting. His robotic nature and complete lack of name makes him intimidating. The only downside is he makes Stark look scummier just by existing.

Glad to see Jennifer Walters. I remember when Soule wrote She-Hulk. She's obviously changed a lot since then. Since she has the weight of the world, she's more subdued, which fits a Daredevil book, but it also fits her predicament. The highlight of the issue was her Hulking out. I think I have to add her book to my read pile. But there's also just a debate about whether something like this is worth the costs.

But I like that the big fight is the legal fight, not the fight in the streets. We just did Karl Kesel's trial of Mr. Hyde in the book club. I expressed some mild disappointment that the story was resolved with superheroics. I thought it made sense given the need to wrap it up. Here, however, it's gone on long enough that I will be disappointed if it ends with some other result.

Overall, this felt a bit too much of a transition. I normally don't like when books double ship, but it'll help remedy the fact that not a lot happened. I liked She-Hulk, though. Three and a Half Stars. I wish it were a little denser.
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The story has nothing interesting so far. I find the whole legal angle boring. The art is also sub-par.
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Dimetre
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Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Francisco in regards to Alec Morgan's art. It's a step down from Goran Sudzuka. The first page shows a fat bald guy hitting a heavybag, and I didn't realize it was supposed to be Fisk. I'm serious. Maybe he looked too young? Or maybe his dialogue wasn't very Fisk-ian? I had a similar problem when Tombstone showed up in the bar. I didn't recognize him from several pages earlier.

Of the issues of the current Hulk series starring Jennifer Walters, she has barely hulked out. You get about as much She-Hulk in this issue as you do in her own series. That book is a well-written horror comic, and the fact that the protagonist is a hulk is incidental.

I was also surprised that the Supreme story was continuing. It seemed to me that Matt won his case in the previous issue, and that we were going to start a new story. So, I was surprised that this issue was Part 3.

The story doesn't really move forward. We meet Legal, and he does seem like a cool character. I don't know if Soule introduced him previously during his She-Hulk run, but I wouldn't be surprised. Jennifer Walters plants within Matt doubts of the validity of his goal. I don't understand. I have doubts as to the effectiveness of his goal, but not the validity. Having started "Supreme" with Matt stating that this is what everything's been leading up to, are we supposed to believe that one conversation with Jennifer Walters would sway him? I don't believe it would, and if I'm right, then that scene served no purpose but supply this issue with an action scene.

I gave this issue a three. There's nothing that wrong with it, apart from the lack-lustre art, but there's nothing that great about it either.
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Mike Murdock
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Joined: 08 Sep 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the art being poor, but I also think Fisk's dialogue was a bit off.

Was there a body in the bag or something? I was trying to figure out why it was dripping blood.
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Sunni
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Joined: 07 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good middle of the arc. We’re well set up for the homestretch, and it was nice to see Matt hanging out at the Lawyer Bar and talking shop with She-Hulk. I liked him saying her light will never go out; it shows his faith in people. I also thought it was supportive of Mr. Hochberg to accompany Matt to court; I didn’t expect him to be there. And It’s funny that Matt mentions Iron Fist as one of the superheroes who keeps their identity secret when Danny acts like it’s no big deal Kingpin knows who he is in Defenders #2 last week. Presumably that happened after this arc LOL.

One thing that occurred to me when reading the court scene, since Legal is legally representing the moving party here, does that mean that Matt has no lawful way to find out that Kingpin is behind the appeal and not Slug? I mean, presumably Legal has no traceable ties to Wilson, which is why Fisk hired him in the first place.

Mike Murdock wrote:
I like Legal. He's interesting. His robotic nature and complete lack of name makes him intimidating. The only downside is he makes Stark look scummier just by existing.

Dimetre wrote:
The story doesn't really move forward. We meet Legal, and he does seem like a cool character. I don't know if Soule introduced him previously during his She-Hulk run, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I like him too, and yes, he’s from She-Hulk. I’d also argue that’s par for the course for Iron Man, and that’s not an insult to Tony. Tony has to be a ruthless businessman to survive in his industry in the Marvel Universe where there’s technology like Sentinels and such all over the place.

Mike Murdock wrote:
But I like that the big fight is the legal fight, not the fight in the streets.

Me too. Since Soule’s an actual lawyer, it would be a huge missed opportunity to not have a legal arc during his run.

Mike Murdock wrote:
Overall, this felt a bit too much of a transition. I normally don't like when books double ship, but it'll help remedy the fact that not a lot happened.

Francesco wrote:
The story has nothing interesting so far. I find the whole legal angle boring. The art is also sub-par.

Double shipping is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the story happens faster, which helps pacing, especially in an arc like this one. On the other, the regular artist and the regular back up artist are both busy, so we get yet another artist. In this case, it’s Alec Morgan, who drew the Bullseye mini backup.

Dimetre wrote:
I have to agree with Francisco in regards to Alec Morgan's art. It's a step down from Goran Sudzuka. The first page shows a fat bald guy hitting a heavybag, and I didn't realize it was supposed to be Fisk. I'm serious. Maybe he looked too young? Or maybe his dialogue wasn't very Fisk-ian? I had a similar problem when Tombstone showed up in the bar. I didn't recognize him from several pages earlier.

Mike Murdock wrote:
I agree with the art being poor

IMHO Morgan’s figure work is a little wonky because there’s not enough dimensionality, so Matt, Jen, Fisk, and Tombstone are all off model as a result. That said, I like what he did here overall as his art has a real sense of flow and motion to it. In addition, the sponge art background texturing is fantastic and really lends the proper atmosphere to each of the different locations (menace in Kingpin’s gym, disquiet in Tombstone’s room, warmth inside the Lawyer Bar, cold out on the rainy street, and weight inside the Court of Appeals).

Dimetre wrote:
I was also surprised that the Supreme story was continuing. It seemed to me that Matt won his case in the previous issue, and that we were going to start a new story. So, I was surprised that this issue was Part 3.

Well, it’s the second appeal, so a different section of the same story.

Dimetre wrote:
Jennifer Walters plants within Matt doubts of the validity of his goal. I don't understand. I have doubts as to the effectiveness of his goal, but not the validity. Having started "Supreme" with Matt stating that this is what everything's been leading up to, are we supposed to believe that one conversation with Jennifer Walters would sway him? I don't believe it would, and if I'm right, then that scene served no purpose but supply this issue with an action scene.

It's smart of Matt to look for an outside opinion to help prepare his case, and I think it’s natural for him to wonder if Jen might be right with the points she makes. But she didn’t win him over or he wouldn’t be in court defending the legislation.

Dimetre wrote:
I gave this issue a three. There's nothing that wrong with it, apart from the lack-lustre art, but there's nothing that great about it either.

Like Mike Murdock said, it’s a transition issue. It depends on how the next two go whether this one was a nice segue into the climax and denouement or an unnecessarily long build.

Mike Murdock wrote:
Was there a body in the bag or something? I was trying to figure out why it was dripping blood.

Yes, that’s why Fisk said he could always get another one.
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GrinchieDog
Flying Blind


Joined: 06 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have mixed but mostly negative feelings toward this latest issue. I'm struggling with caring about Murdock's attempt to get courts to recognize superheroes as confidential informants. Suspending disbelief in comics has always been required for various topics and how criminals are treated after superheroes have caught them is one of these topics.

Spiderman countlessly has caught purse snatchers and webbed them up for the police to take into custody. If you think too hard about it, you would think about whether the police would accept the fact that they can readily take the criminal into custody. Witnesses? The police are basically Spiderman's word that the purse snatcher is guilty.

Another example is when DD captures a super villian, where there likely are no witnesses, etc. A jury is going to find these supervillians guilty without necessarily having witnesses, etc or beyond a reasonable doubt? I'm not being too elegant here but I hope you all get the picture.

I also didn't recognize Kingpin and certainly don't see his character ever wanting to put blood into a punching bag. His actions are always strategic and placing blood into a bag makes no sense. He is really going to drain multiple people's blood (there are only 8 qts in a human body)? There are many other ways that writers have displayed Kingpin's violent tendencies.

Lastly, I'm disappointed that Murdock continues to advertise DD's abilities such as superhearing, etc like he did to She Hulk or in the courtroom last issue. Historically, this skill and others haven't been known to the public or to his enemies. in fact, only under rare occasions over the years have any supervillians known of his skills and taken this knowledge into account to their advantage (such as using a loud whining device to render him immobile). Thugs are always surprised and confused when DD turns the light off and then easily wins the fight. I certainly don't think his skills should have been used in the court scene to justify who he is.

I'm going with a 3 out of 5.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GrinchieDog wrote:
I have mixed but mostly negative feelings toward this latest issue. I'm struggling with caring about Murdock's attempt to get courts to recognize superheroes as confidential informants. Suspending disbelief in comics has always been required for various topics and how criminals are treated after superheroes have caught them is one of these topics.


While I agree with suspension of disbelief being necessary, I disagree that it goes to the extent that you say. There have been plenty of stories that deal with the role of the criminal justice system with superhero actions. Some of the Punisher stories are premised on it (the courts let the bad guy go due to some "technicality"). Daredevil 15.1, the Mr. Hyde story we just covered in the Book Club, etc. all touch on this. I'll follow up more specifically related to some points.



Quote:
Spiderman countlessly has caught purse snatchers and webbed them up for the police to take into custody. If you think too hard about it, you would think about whether the police would accept the fact that they can readily take the criminal into custody. Witnesses? The police are basically Spiderman's word that the purse snatcher is guilty.


Well, the police would arrest (they can do that either way and always have been able to do so), but the assumption is always that there are other ways to prove the case. In a purse snatcher case, the person whose purse was stolen would be the one to say "yeah, this person took my purse."

Quote:
Another example is when DD captures a super villian, where there likely are no witnesses, etc. A jury is going to find these supervillians guilty without necessarily having witnesses, etc or beyond a reasonable doubt? I'm not being too elegant here but I hope you all get the picture.


Most supervillains escaped from custody. They don't have to prove a new crime to lock them up. None of those cases bother me for precisely that reason.

Quote:
I also didn't recognize Kingpin and certainly don't see his character ever wanting to put blood into a punching bag. His actions are always strategic and placing blood into a bag makes no sense. He is really going to drain multiple people's blood (there are only 8 qts in a human body)? There are many other ways that writers have displayed Kingpin's violent tendencies.


I agree with that. Kingpin was quite odd in this story. I'm still curious what the intent behind that punching bag was. I am still assuming there's a person inside. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons
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Dimetre
Ninja


Joined: 16 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike Murdock wrote:
GrinchieDog wrote:
I also didn't recognize Kingpin and certainly don't see his character ever wanting to put blood into a punching bag. His actions are always strategic and placing blood into a bag makes no sense. He is really going to drain multiple people's blood (there are only 8 qts in a human body)? There are many other ways that writers have displayed Kingpin's violent tendencies.


I agree with that. Kingpin was quite odd in this story. I'm still curious what the intent behind that punching bag was. I am still assuming there's a person inside. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

The punching bag wasn't confusing to me. I thought it was clear that there was at least one body inside.
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Wheelie
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Joined: 10 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimetre wrote:
Mike Murdock wrote:
GrinchieDog wrote:
I also didn't recognize Kingpin and certainly don't see his character ever wanting to put blood into a punching bag. His actions are always strategic and placing blood into a bag makes no sense. He is really going to drain multiple people's blood (there are only 8 qts in a human body)? There are many other ways that writers have displayed Kingpin's violent tendencies.


I agree with that. Kingpin was quite odd in this story. I'm still curious what the intent behind that punching bag was. I am still assuming there's a person inside. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

The punching bag wasn't confusing to me. I thought it was clear that there was at least one body inside.


Yep. And Tombstone was muttering about being motivated to not become the next person in the bag.
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