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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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 Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| Darkdevil wrote: | | First off, She-Hulk is relevant for both characters supposedly occupy the same shared universe. While the focus of their individual series may be different, both are highly accomplished lawyers. Yet Jennifer is still able to practice law in NY while Matt has to go to San Fran. Unless it relates to her registering under the Superhero Registration Act during Civil War. I think it's an interesting discrepancy. |
The high-point of the She-Hulk was the Byrne-launched vol. 2, a humor strip in which Shulkie was written as aware that she was a comic-book character and vigorously carried on a dialogue with her creators. Qtmxd has noted the ridiculousness in trying to cite a book of such radically different character that engenders such radically different expectations, he was making a point so obvious and undeniable it shouldn't have to be so explicitly stated, and it's just silly to return to that as if it has any relevance at all to this conversation. It's no different than reversing the argument and saying She-Hulk vol. 2--in my view some of the most wonderful comics Marvel has ever published--is inappropriate because, though set in the same universe, it enthusiastically eschews the serious, mature tone of Daredevil at its best. Everyone would have to confess the Marvel Universe, grand experiment that it is, is a clunky, problematic critter. It works best as a very general framework full of pocket "universes" in which things like Thor, Howard the Duck and Daredevil can vaguely coexist.
| Darkdevil wrote: | Second, I would agree with certain comments jriddle made in another thread. Matt lives in NYC, is a lawyer, and operates in secret as DD. Those serve as prime foundations for his static character. But those should be guidelines for his static status quo instead of constrictive boundaries. Why should that dissuade Marvel from pushing those boundaries or even outright demolishing them?
For if you keep those same elements static throughout, eventually that will breed in stagnation, I don't care what talented writer you have working on the title. By pushing at the boundaries, Marvel is trying to increase business and recognition while they know that they can restore the static status quo at their discretion. You want the character to be familiar (ie a lawyer vigilante operating in NYC) while also expanding the purview of the character occasionally (ie Matt now living in San Fran). |
To quote myself from that other thread:
"It is a fact that, when dealing with these sorts of corporate serialized-into-infinity properties, there are certain broad limitations imposed upon them, parameters that form the architecture of fictional worlds. Established creations develop traditions, which fuels consumer loyalty; they're also mythologies that became successful and continue because of a certain power within their basic ideas, ideas not subject to a great deal of tampering; it's also the case that consumers have just found something comfortable about them. And, of course, yet another reason they persevere--maybe the most important one--is that talented creators are able to spin an almost infinite variety of tales within these broad parameters I'm describing. It's true that some of the best material (and, to be fair, some of the worst) pushes at those boundaries, but if one is going to take an established and ongoing property and radically alter it until it no longer bears any resemblance to itself, what's the point in even pretending it's a continuation?"
There's plenty of overlap in the broad parameters I outlined there, and people will disagree at times about what element belongs in what category. As I noted in that other thread, though, Waid has assaulted all of these, deducting from, undermining and, ultimately, destroying the character. Historically speaking, this only works if a better character and better world--or, more realistically, a more successful world and character--is constructed in its place. Daredevil's declining sales during Waid's run speak to how well his effort has gone over. If one subtracted mere completists, those oddly persistent creatures of the contemporary comics market who buy the various books regardless of quality, it's possible and even likely DD would have been at cancellation level for years now.
Managed properly, these broad parameters are made up of the things that make the characters interesting and that allow the characters to survive and be successful. It's certain, as you say, that one must always guard against their becoming too restrictive, but it's necessary to note there are entire galaxies between that and what Waid has done. Bendis/Brubaker pushed against those parameters hard but thoughtfully and with a measured eye toward how far they could take it; they were able to squeeze great story material out of it precisely because of the existence of those parameters (in part), and they did so without rendering the character unrecognizable or inflicting a permanent disability on it. The distinction is important. Waid didn't push at those parameters to mine that pushing for story material--Matt has faced virtually no consequences for fessing up. Waid blew up the parameters and threw them away because he simply wanted to write a book that had no resemblance to Daredevil and is using the Daredevil book to do it. He didn't care about the book or the damage he was inflicting on it, damage that will require some stupid, further damaging retcon to fix. |
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admiralpetty
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Kalispell, MT
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | Just to keep matters straight, there have been no--and that "no" is absolute--no defenses of the identity confession. Those who have spoken about it have offered mostly meaningless rationales for it--there aren't as many secret identities in the Marvel Universe these days, the Avengers (of which DD shouldn't be a part in the first place) could help protect him from trouble, some completely different character in a completely different book of a completely different kind has a similar situation, it's all to be blamed on Bendis, Brubaker, or anyone except Waid, etc. No one has made any case for it being a good idea or anything less than a very, very bad one. I've outlined repeatedly why such a confession is an horrendous idea that would lead to horrendous consequences (as the DD canon itself demonstrates), and there hasn't been a single credible counterargument to any element of that case (and to note the obvious, since, it seems, one must, offering the equivalent of "nuh uh" then writing half a dozen ad hominem-filled posts saying I refused to bow to such brilliant argumentation is no counterargument). I even offered up the only counter available--yes, in what the reader is being asked to swallow Waid's DD is being written at the level of a children's book (an evaluation not subject to serious challenge), but if one plays along with his conceit the book has x, y, and z merits that outweigh turning off one's brain on the rest--but no one has yet picked it up. |
Absolute in your own mind. It is already clear that you believe you are infallible in your conclusions on these matters, the rest of us continue to post because it is fun to debate(although some on this board probably think they could change your mind), even though we know you will never see eye to eye, after all, your reasoning is absolute  . All of those reasons are valid reasons within the Marvel universe, just because they are different books etc, doesn't mean they aren't representative of Marvel and the realities in the universe.
I have no interest in defending the story merits of Waid's run, as it is clear that you have an incredible hatred of most everything the man writes, and frankly, who cares whether other people enjoy the same things as you, there are other Waid lovers and haters on the site to align with. As for the consequences of his identity being revealed, it was only five issues ago, so whatever consequences may arise from it are hardly explored at this point. The points up above which you continue to ignore, are valid points in the Marvel reality as to why things may be different for DD now as compared to Bendis' run on the title. Whether or not you think they constitute storytelling is beyond the point, as what constitutes a good story is completely up to one's sense of taste, just as much as the art styles really.
To be honest, even though I'm enjoying Waid's run, I don't think it holds a candle to what Miller and Bendis have done with DD(sadly Brubaker left me cold, which surprised me as I loved his Cap work as well as what he did at DC). I reread my Miller and Bendis trades more frequently than Waid's, however I don't feel that what Waid has done is out of step with the realities of the character and the Marvel Universe, and I certainly don't think Waid's run requires an outright wipe in order to get back to noir stories.
I actually agree with you that DD found itself during Miller's run. There were various enjoyable stories prior, but nothing before or after holds a candle to Miller's work on the title. However the stories prior to it are still part of DD's history, even Miller poked fun at Stilt Man. I can understand one hundred percent why some would not enjoy Waid's run, because it is so different from the usual noir stuff. But Waid's run hasn't been nearly as disrespectful to DD as some would claim. Waid doesn't dwell over much on things from DD's past, but he acknowledges them as he builds his own DD story. The whole identity thing in court goes back to Bendis' run. Milla's appearance is also respectful, acknowledging what occurred in Bendis and Brubaker's runs and showing that despite Matt's supposedly happy go lucky facade, he is still tortured by what happened to her. There was also the story where Matt came to terms after the theft of his Father's bones, and that they weren't really his father. The arc with Coyote acknowledged Matt's previous battles with mental illness. Those are just a few examples.
Despite your hatred for Waid, I don't believe he is set on destroying DD's legacy the way you do. He acknowledges DD's past plenty in his run. I frankly enjoy seeing the more classically heroic side of DD without all the depression and self doubt that the character is usually mired in. That made for great stories, but after a while it does get to be to much. I have no doubt we will see more of those stories in the future, but I don't feel that they all have to include Matt at the brink of his sanity.
Frankly, given Marvel's preference to have their comic characters more closely match their screen versions(lest we forget Nick Fury Jr.  ), it is only a matter of time before they bring DD more closely in line with the noir settings that the show seems to be aiming for. |
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | Just to keep matters straight, there have been no--and that "no" is absolute--no defenses of the identity confession. Those who have spoken about it have offered mostly meaningless rationales for it--there aren't as many secret identities in the Marvel Universe these days, the Avengers (of which DD shouldn't be a part in the first place) could help protect him from trouble, some completely different character in a completely different book of a completely different kind has a similar situation, it's all to be blamed on Bendis, Brubaker, or anyone except Waid, etc. No one has made any case for it being a good idea or anything less than a very, very bad one. |
To wit:
| darkdevil wrote: | | Third, if you read the book, you will see that Waid is just beginning to show the effects of Matt's reveal. |
Waid may end up showing that Matt doesn't like the consequences of his reveal and thus may seek to change it back. We just have to wait and see...that is, if you read the book.
Also, the majority of editors and writers at Marvel would seem to disagree with your assessment over the implied over-importance of secret identities for heroes in today's comics. See, fandom holds a wide array of opinions on similar subjects, some of which may appeal or even agree with you and some that don't.
| jriddle wrote: | | Everyone would have to confess the Marvel Universe, grand experiment that it is, is a clunky, problematic critter. It works best as a very general framework full of pocket "universes" in which things like Thor, Howard the Duck and Daredevil can vaguely coexist. |
Um, I don't confess to that at all. We must be reading different publishers.
The Marvel Universe is a shared universe of all it's characters. Thus, Jennifer Walters aka She-Hulk is a licensed practicing attorney in the state of NY while Matt Murdock aka Daredevil has been disbarred from practicing law in the state of NY.
It's an odd discrepancy that occurred to me. The tone of both characters' books is completely irrelevant, only the underlying indisputable fact that both are nominally lawyers in the same city and state. In fact, Jennifer Walters recently made an appearance in Aaron's Thor God of Thunder title and there was nothing funny or comedic about her appearance in any way.
| jriddle wrote: | | He didn't care about the book or the damage he was inflicting on it, damage that will require some stupid, further damaging retcon to fix. |
Actually, you don't know that, you can't say for certain what form of retcon, if executed, will take. It seems to me that your anger isn't so much about some gross betrayal of the 'core' character but rather, what lengths Marvel will go to in order to restore his status quo.
We are dealing with a medium that trades in gods walking the earth, supernatural occurrences, alien races and invasions, technology that almost borders on being magic, and where death is a cheap sales trick. If Quesada can erase Peter's long-standing marriage to Mary Jane through a mystical deal with the devil, I would think it's wouldn't be all that hard nor damaging to restore a character's secret identity.
Again, you all seem to be crying for the sun to rise over this abominable darkness when it will naturally regardless...... |
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MarcWagz
Flying Blind
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Posts: 83
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I'll just say from what I've read of Waid's run (volumes 1-5) I much prefer Brubaker and Bendis' runs.
Its not about being realistic, its about being entertaining. Waid's run has some absolutely bore me to tears stories, the issues with Mole Man, the issue where ant-man goes into Matt's head (what the heck is that poop?), they make it seem like they aren't even trying. And while everything is eventually tied back to braindead bullseye in an attempt to make it seem cohesive, it was really too little to late, all of the sudden Lady Bullseye is there, and Bullseye has somehow made a non-blind radar sense using super assassin?
How did Bullseye even train this assassin? he isn't as skilled as daredevil, plus hes a paraplegic.
How did this assassin get radar sense without being blind if bullseye was giving radar sense by splashing acid in peoples faces (a retcon I've noticed that totally changes the radioactive bar vs biohazard liquid debate...)
And then worst of all, Matt defeats all three of them by collapsing the roof, in like one panel. That was pathetic. |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| Darkdevil wrote: | | jriddle wrote: | | Just to keep matters straight, there have been no--and that "no" is absolute--no defenses of the identity confession. Those who have spoken about it have offered mostly meaningless rationales for it--there aren't as many secret identities in the Marvel Universe these days, the Avengers (of which DD shouldn't be a part in the first place) could help protect him from trouble, some completely different character in a completely different book of a completely different kind has a similar situation, it's all to be blamed on Bendis, Brubaker, or anyone except Waid, etc. No one has made any case for it being a good idea or anything less than a very, very bad one. |
To wit:
| darkdevil wrote: | | Third, if you read the book, you will see that Waid is just beginning to show the effects of Matt's reveal. |
Waid may end up showing that Matt doesn't like the consequences of his reveal and thus may seek to change it back. We just have to wait and see |
The problem (as you're well aware) is that the effects would be both immediate, devastating, and just as I've repeatedly described (and that's not, as you seemed to present it, an argument in favor of the reveal). We've already had an extended storyline stretching over years illustrating the catastrophic damage caused by just the allegation he's Daredevil; next to a confession, that would look like a picnic in the park. As I said before, if you wish to throw all logic aside and play along with Waid's children's level storytelling on this point because you think other elements of his work have other merits that outweigh it, that's fine, but that is what you're doing.
| Darkdevil wrote: | | Also, the majority of editors and writers at Marvel |
...are, I'm sure, nice folks, but have absolutely no relevance to this discussion.
| Darkdevil wrote: | | jriddle wrote: | | Everyone would have to confess the Marvel Universe, grand experiment that it is, is a clunky, problematic critter. It works best as a very general framework full of pocket "universes" in which things like Thor, Howard the Duck and Daredevil can vaguely coexist. |
Um, I don't confess to that at all. We must be reading different publishers. |
You may not confess it, but if you're a Marvel reader for any period of time, you know as well as I that it's true, and I don't understand this silly pretense of the contrary any more than I did before.
| Darkdevil wrote: | The Marvel Universe is a shared universe of all it's characters. Thus, Jennifer Walters aka She-Hulk is a licensed practicing attorney in the state of NY while Matt Murdock aka Daredevil has been disbarred from practicing law in the state of NY.
It's an odd discrepancy that occurred to me. The tone of both characters' books is completely irrelevant, only the underlying indisputable fact that both are nominally lawyers in the same city and state. In fact, Jennifer Walters recently made an appearance in Aaron's Thor God of Thunder title and there was nothing funny or comedic about her appearance in any way. |
And in the course of that, did Jenn share with Thor her awareness that they're all just comic characters and tell him who was writing and drawing them? Has she ever shared existentially explosive revelation with anyone outside her own book? Or is my characterization of the Marvel Universe, the one with which you made a show of disagreeing, in fact correct (and tone does, in fact, matter a great deal)? There's no third option here, and the answer is really obvious.
Canonically, the Marvel Universe began, just as real-world science teaches us, with a big bang. It, in fact, contains beings--the Elders--powered by what's described as the Power Primordial, released by that event. Also canonically, it began as described in both Greek and Norse mythology, and the characters and places described in those versions are all featured in the MU. I'm sure the Jewish/Christian version has been worked in at some point--Satan and his minions are MU characters as well, and we've seen an angel of Heaven in DD itself--and there are probably several others I'm forgetting or of which I may not even be aware. These are all pocket "universes" that vaguely co-exist--a clunky experiment full of problems, but a grand one.
| Darkdevil wrote: | | jriddle wrote: | | He didn't care about the book or the damage he was inflicting on it, damage that will require some stupid, further damaging retcon to fix. |
Actually, you don't know that, you can't say for certain what form of retcon, if executed, will take. |
Knowledge of DD's identity has to be removed from the mind of man, and there's no pretty way to do that, just some less dumb than others.
| Darkdevil wrote: | | We are dealing with a medium that trades in gods walking the earth, supernatural occurrences, alien races and invasions, technology that almost borders on being magic, and where death is a cheap sales trick. If Quesada can erase Peter's long-standing marriage to Mary Jane through a mystical deal with the devil, I would think it's wouldn't be all that hard nor damaging to restore a character's secret identity. |
If you think "One More Day" was a good thing, you're the first person I've encountered (and that would include even its author) who did. Those kind of devices are awful. I don't like to see them happen to Daredevil any more than I like to see Waid happen to him.
Last edited by jriddle on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: |
You'll find very few examples of major characters in modern comics that have undergone such radical changes, particularly in that flip-of-the-lightswitch way. |
*cough cough*
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54067
I'll just leave that there.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if my friend Mr. Riddle is reading the sites like CBR, where this run is called "perfection" by "masters at the top of their game", but it makes our friendly debaters here seem a lot more reasonable. By comparison, they're damning Waid and Samnee with faint praise.
I'll repeat my Sherlock Holmes analogy because I like it. If Dashiell Hammett had been hired to write Sherlock Holmes and changed the cerebral, asexual Holmes into a tough-talking, womanizing American gumshoe, I don't believe anyone would have said, so what, he's still a detective, or it's all a fantasy anyway, or it's a breath of fresh air. Holmes can go from Victorian England to WW II or the present, but he still has to be the same man.
I'll try simplifying all the arguments. JRiddle, myself, Daredevl 24, Francesco, and probably some other people who currently have more important things to do than hang out here, think this run is childish, ridiculous, and beyond any acceptable parameters for the character. The responses are it's all a fantasy anyway, things like that happen in the rest of the MU, any writer can do anything as long as the character has the same name and powers, and it's all a matter of taste. Other, more taste dependent arguments are Miller was the only good noir writer and everyone else was a rehash, and pre-Miller DD was just as good as post-Miller. So, hypothetically... is there anything a writer can do to DD that would not be acceptable to you... that you would agree was childish, ridiculous, or outside the parameters? We've already had a villain who made Matt look crazy by teleporting stuff, DD walking around without a head, Ant Man walking out of his ear, DD on the Silver Surfer's surfboard, and publicly revealing his identity and describing his powers. None of these things are too much for you. I've tried to think of things that could be worse, but actually, they aren't any worse. Could he go into space with Rocket Raccoon? Could they actually do that cartoon they had planned where he'd have a crime fighting dog named Lightning? (And , to edit this after having just seen Mr. Castle's post appear, I'll add, could DD have a sex change? )If none of that would bother you either, then we really do have completely different standards, and this is totally a mental exercise, and a philosophical discussion about art. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| qtmxd wrote: | | Could he go into space with Rocket Raccoon? Could they actually do that cartoon they had planned where he'd have a crime fighting dog named Lightning? (And , to edit this after having just seen Mr. Castle's post appear, I'll add, could DD have a sex change? )If none of that would bother you either, then we really do have completely different standards, and this is totally a mental exercise, and a philosophical discussion about art. |
Agreed. Although, I would say that it's a philosophical discussion about a specific art - comics and specifically super hero comics. As I point out in my attempt at a positive thread I would LOVE DD to go to space (and if Rocket Raccoon is there all the better). I would also love a super dog (wasn't there one in the comic at some point).
But maybe that's just me.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | qtmxd wrote: | | Could he go into space with Rocket Raccoon? Could they actually do that cartoon they had planned where he'd have a crime fighting dog named Lightning? (And , to edit this after having just seen Mr. Castle's post appear, I'll add, could DD have a sex change? )If none of that would bother you either, then we really do have completely different standards, and this is totally a mental exercise, and a philosophical discussion about art. |
Agreed. Although, I would say that it's a philosophical discussion about a specific art - comics and specifically super hero comics. As I point out in my attempt at a positive thread I would LOVE DD to go to space (and if Rocket Raccoon is there all the better). I would also love a super dog (wasn't there one in the comic at some point)
But maybe that's just me. |
I think he's done fine in many kinds of fantasy and earthbound sf, but has never done well to my taste with any outer space encounters. And I'm sure at least that it's not just me 
While this is specific to comics, there are analogous arguments about other art forms, especially the visual arts. Is art "anything goes", or not, and when and where particular standards will apply.
Well, I guess it's okay with me if I've suggested a fun fantasy to you. And the crime fighting dog was part of a television cartoon proposal that was never realized. I'm sure he's never met Millie the Model, but it's all the MU, so that could happen too. And he did have an issue where Two Gun Kid appeared, though neither time travelled in that issue and actually met. (The Kid met the Avengers many times, but they didn't go that far in DD's pocket of the MU, thankfully by my standards) But this is confirming my recognition that maybe there's no point here in calling something childish, ridiculous, or outside the parameters of any character. That last is important to me...what's absurd to one character may not be to another. But you don't seem to consider any of those standards as meaningful, at least in the context of comics. |
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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I forgot crossovers. Punisher already met Archie, so DD can too. He's already got the right artist for it.
That Thor gender switch (If it's a new person incarnating as Thor, making this the third time it's happened over in Thor's pocket of the MU, it's not even a gender switch like Loki did.... I actually liked that one a lot.) raised a possibility. Marvel is actually not lining up their movies with the comics. They might even like having a contrast, and think it sparks interest in both. We mostly all assumed Waid was leaving after Volume 1, to be replaced with noir, and we were wrong. Now we're assuming, regardless of what we like, that there will be a new noir series to sort of match the tv show. Not necessarily. Marvel may like the contrast, and think it's interesting that an adult tv show is linked to such a light hearted book. If there's been any hint whatsoever from Marvel that a noir DD comic is coming, I haven't seen it. |
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | Knowledge of DD's identity has to be removed from the mind of man, and there's no pretty way to do that, just some less dumb than others. |
But that doesn't mean that it can't be done. Marvel can undo/reverse his reveal through any number of possible ways. You can't bemoan how they do it till they actually do it so why waste your breath in this fashion?
And for the record, I don't like the dissolution of Peter's marriage, a horrid idea but that's another rant for another day.
| qtmxd wrote: | | I don't know if my friend Mr. Riddle is reading the sites like CBR, where this run is called "perfection" by "masters at the top of their game", but it makes our friendly debaters here seem a lot more reasonable. By comparison, they're damning Waid and Samnee with faint praise. |
Which is why I rarely quote such reviews in these types of arguments. There is typically some form of bias involved. For example, those same CBR reviewers give Bendis' current destruction of the X-franchise the same high watermarks even though it's full of his usual glaring errors and faults.
Although if one would like to read an interesting comparison of Waid's run to typical Silver-Age foolishness, try this article:
http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2013/08/15/would-mark-waids-daredevil-just-be-an-average-superhero-comic-book-back-in-the-old-days/ |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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qtmxd
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 Sep 2010
Posts: 149
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="james castle"] | james castle wrote: | | jriddle wrote: |
You'll find very few examples of major characters in modern comics that have undergone such radical changes, particularly in that flip-of-the-lightswitch way. |
*cough cough*
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54067
I'll just leave that there. |
Annnnnnnd, I'll just leave these too:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54124
You can assume we all read this earlier today. As I said on your other thread, you and Marvel are on the same page. You want endless reboots, you've got them. I don't know what this says about the current state of comics sales. Maybe nothing good, but that's not my field. Anyway, they're yours to enjoy. |
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