Daredevil Message Board

[The Overlord]

Now there has been much negative reaction to how Shadow land ended, but I think this is symptomatic of a bigger problem. The problem is too many writer's copy Miller's "Born Again ". The original Born Again story was great, one of the best DD stories ever. However too many writers have copied it, when Nocenti did it, it was good, not as good as the original, but still good. When Smith did it, it was....not as good. At this point DD's life has been destroyed 5 or 6 times, now its just a joke, devoid of any real drama.

Destroying DD's life so he can rebuild it so it can be destroyed again in a few years is not good story telling. Not every story has to be a buildup to DD's life being destroyed. Not every story has involved destroying DD's life. It seems like there are tons of off beat stories you can tell where DD fights Purple Man, Typhoid Mary or Mr. Hyde while actually managing to rebuild life in way that sticks. I think the writers have gone to the Born Again well once too often and DD will never go anywhere as long as this continues.

[DesignDevil]

I wholeheartedly agree, but I think lately there is a more specific problem than just copying Born Again. The writers seem to have forgotten the point of Born Again. Born Again ended on a triumphant note. Matt's professional life was still in shambles, but he had foiled Kingpin's at least temporarily. At the end he was happy, content, walking down the street with Karen, confident that he had been through the crucible and came out stronger.

Even Kevin Smith got that. For all the faults of Guardian Devil, at least Smith knew you end with the hero winning in at least some small measure.

Bendis got that too. He ended with the big cliffhanger of Matt in prison yeah, but his run was a roller coaster of highs and lows. There was happiness and sadness. Triumph and tragedy.

Brubaker, as good as his run was, just seemed to pile on more and more tragedy with no moment for the hero to be a hero. Diggle followed suit.

[Francesco]

You are completely right, RGDesigner. That's exactly what's happened in these last years. Not only they try to re-enact Born Again, they don't even get the point of Born Again.

[Guardian-Devil]

I'm not 100% with you guys!!! I mean yeah you're right about "they don't even get the point of Born Again" but i'm not one of the people who are disappointed with the finale of Shadowland or Diggle's run in DD!! Don't get me wrong i too think the finale could have been better but in my opinion was a decent ending... I may be a DD fan for over 8 years but i've read most of the DD issues.
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[Darkdevil]

Recent writers seem to think that tragedy is now required for Matt Murdock. Peter Parker is forever the Lovable Loser, Matt is forever Tragic.

That was the real problem with Shadowland: having gone through so much personally and professionally, I wouldn't blame Matt for cracking and going all dark-side. Alas, it was not to be.

It's also the major problem with Miller. His work was so re-defining and popular, it's as if anyone who follows is afraid to change/alter the 'formula'.

[DesignDevil]

You mention the "formula" of Miller, but like i said, they don't get the formula right anymore. Frank Miller loves to put characters through total hell and then some, but they almost always come out on top and stronger for it.

When was the last time Matt Murdock came out on top of anything besides Dakota North?

[The Overlord]

[Darkdevil]

They need to throw out the formula. Tragedy has become the norm, the expected, the requirement.

Tragedy has defined Matt and that's one element that makes him a great comic character but it shouldn't be the sole definition.

I want a more relaxed, content, Matt, someone who isn't faced with some form of soul-crushing guilt every month. I'd like to see a return to the early swashbuckler days, that'd be great. Anything other than the now-normal sullen, dark, and tragic character today.

[The Overlord]

[Dimetre]

I agree that tragedy shouldn't be a required element of Daredevil, but I do think the title works best with noir elements. That doesn't mean tragedy. It means that that Daredevil works best as a hard-boiled character who battles Hell's Kitchen's criminal underbelly while dealing with crime as a lawyer during the daytime. Miller proved this, so why fight that?

I always defend Brubaker, and I will again. I think Brubaker worked very well maintaining this noir element of Daredevil, but was saddled with the task of finishing a lot of what Bendis set up during his years on the book but never resolved: the outing of the secret identity, the marriage to Milla, the incarceration, his grief over Karen Page (set up by Smith, I know).... I thought he did a good job of dealing with these issues, and I felt that his first few arcs restored some of Matt's heroism and nobility, but that Matt became more disappointingly passive during the Lady Bullseye and Return of the King arcs.

I'm assuming you're accusing Brubaker of copying Born Again durin the Without Fear arc. I felt it was necessary to resolve what Bendis had set up with the the marriage to Milla and the as yet unresolved grief over Karen.

[Guardian-Devil]

I think all the noir and dark elements in DD made him what he is!!! But I believe in balance!! DD needs a writer who can deliver both "good" and "evil" stories...
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[train]

it's threads like this that make me realize how much i miss the Karl Kessel and Joe Kelly story arcs. i know that some here don't really care of the lighter tone of these authors, but thes authors at lease made an attempt to go against the grain.

[Foggy's Pal]

Seems to me that this is a great point for a writer to come in and begin with a blank slate- after Reborn, we should have a Matt/Daredevil ready to tackle the world while being anchored to his roots. Strip the character down to a blind lawyer with amazing fighting skills who is a compassionate friend. From there a writer can build; quit falling back on the past. As for the art, I would like to see a slight shift from the Maleev/Lark style. They are phenomenal, but I would like to see something a little tighter and brighter. I want Rucka writing and Samnee on art.
An aside here, I would love Lemire on this book. I would love to see him strip DD down to his roots in Hell's Kitchen and focus on Matt's relationships. (not going to happen, but still)

[Pete]

[Darkdevil]

A balance is definitely needed.

The noir and crime elements work in DD, I'm not denying that. It is part of the appeal of the character.

But I'm tired of every event or arc being about destroying Matt in some way and then rebuilding him back up. That's the formula they should toss out. Let the man live, fight crime, and triumph occasionally.