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admiralpetty
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Kalispell, MT
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 Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject: Daredevil's Secret Identity |
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SPOILERS for those not caught up on the current run.
One thing I've noticed browsing these forums is that Waid's run is rather divisive with a lot of DD fans. In particular the official reveal of DD's secret identity at the end of Waid's last volume. Rather than defending or attacking Waid's run, I'd like to see people's thoughts on the current state of Daredevil's secret identity, and whether they think it should be permanent.
If it will help you be more objective, imagine that this development happened during a run by your favorite DD writer.
Here's my initial opinion:
To start with, I really love the current state of DD's secret identity. Another forum member brought up the fact that part of comics is that they always revert to the status quo at some point, which is comforting in its own way(even though I loved Dick Grayson as Batman, nice to know that years down the line Bruce will still be Batman). However it is also frustrating for a longtime reader sometimes.
I absolutely love certain Daredevil runs to death, Miller's in particular, but all the gritty depressing stories in Daredevil were getting to be to much. After successive dark gritty runs, I was ready something to shakeup the title.
I personally hope they stick with it, its not like Daredevil is the first hero who revealed his identity either. Iron Man comes to mind, we are all used to it at this point, but that wasn't the original state of things in his comics. Granted he is a wealthy member of the Avengers, but it has still endangered close friends of his, as well as all of his employees. Also, DD is actively affiliated with the Avengers these days as well.
We have to remember that a lot of the "great" moments in characters histories are the moments that change things and radically alter the status quo. Gwen Stacy's death in Spider-Man and Miller's run on DD come to mind. Sometimes its nice to see writers forging new and interesting stories rather than reverently referencing those "great" moments in early runs and retreading old stories to avoid shaking the status quo up to much. There's a difference between be respectful and being overly reverent.
At this point, DD's secret identity has been questionable for years now, ever since Bendis' run on the title. This new change is hardly a change at all in my mind, and I think it would be a shame to reverse it. Instead I feel it should be embraced by writers going forward.
HOWEVER
I would also be fine with things reverting, provided the story is good. A little disappointed maybe, but the most important thing in comics is the creative team, regardless of the current status quo. After all, if a comic reader forever gave up on a character because of certain runs and changes that they don't like, they'd eventually have to give up most comic characters, even the best characters will sometimes be handled poorly in our opinions. |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Secret Identity |
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| admiralpetty wrote: | | We have to remember that a lot of the "great" moments in characters histories are the moments that change things and radically alter the status quo. Gwen Stacy's death in Spider-Man and Miller's run on DD come to mind. Sometimes its nice to see writers forging new and interesting stories rather than reverently referencing those "great" moments in early runs and retreading old stories to avoid shaking the status quo up to much. There's a difference between be respectful and being overly reverent. |
Changing the status quo is good, but entirely undermining the foundational concept of the character--the Waid approach--renders it Daredevil in name only. Neither of the examples you referenced did this, nor even tried. As I wrote in the "Future of Daredevil" thread, what we have now is a Daredevil "who has no connection with and bears no resemblance to the character people have read for decades, living in an alien town (no more Devil of Hell's Kitchen, no more Folk Hero of New York, none of that cast that has passed through the book for all these years), in a world where everyone knows he's a superhero (and every villain knows how to defeat him), and we're all just forced to pretend he could credibly pull up stakes, move somewhere else and start over without any serious fallout, in spite of every logical consideration and years worth of stories warning of what would happen if his secret was ever out." In a credibly-written book, that confession would mean his life would be over, he'd be disbarred--disbarred, period, not just in New York--and he'd go to prison for as long as he could last there while everyone he ever loved was horribly slaughtered and he was powerless to do anything about it. And he would soon be killed himself. Any book in which these things don't come to pass in rapid succession is, inherently, the worst kind of idiotic, third-rate hackwork, a book for not-so-bright children, a book that openly insults every reader. It not only isn't anything that even resembles DD, it's something that can never be made to resemble DD again.
There's a little moment in early Bendis Daredevil where some cops are sitting in their squad car. The greener rookie is talking about superheros and how do you know when one really is who they claim to be. The older, more seasoned cop assures him he'll know. They end up at the scene of a fight between DD and an assassin who just exploded in front of a courthouse and the young cop, ignoring his partner, draws down on DD. He ends up popping off a round, which hits the assassin. DD tells them the situation, warns the younger cop of dire consequences if he ever pulls anything like that again, then leaves. The more seasoned cop tears into his junior partner, berating him, telling him the guy he just drew down on is the only thing--the only thing--that keeps this town from eating itself.
That's the power of the DD myth.
That's what Waid has taken away. |
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admiralpetty
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Kalispell, MT
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| Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: Daredevil's Secret Identity |
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| jriddle wrote: | | Any book in which these things don't come to pass in rapid succession is, inherently, the worst kind of idiotic, third-rate hackwork, a book for not-so-bright children, a book that openly insults every reader. It not only isn't anything that even resembles DD, it's something that can never be made to resemble DD again. |
I really don't think it is necessary to belittle the readers that do enjoy the current run. As for what you say, maybe the courtroom scene was a bit over the top, however his secret identity is already known by the villains anyhow. Lets be honest, in Bendis' run, continued by Brubaker, half of New York thinks he is anyhow, its chalked up to being similar to Hollywood gossip, everybody forget about it in favor of the next Lindsay Lohan story, which frankly in a world where superheroes are as common as alien invasions, makes sense, superheroes are celebrities. The villains however wouldn't forget this, nor would they dismiss it like the public does.
These days more and more Marvel superheroes have public identities anyhow. Their enemies know who they are as well, as I mentioned with Tony Stark, in Fractions first story arc on the series, thousands of employees are put in danger just because they work for his company. Even when Spider-Man's identity was outed, the real danger was because he was on the run after leaving the pro-registration camp, otherwise the whole Aunt May debacle never would have happened.
Although mostly a solo hero, Daredevil has connections to help him with these issues(although maybe he should start thinking about dating other supers again). Him relying on others more is a logical next step after what his arrogance nearly cost him in Bendis' run in particular(as was pointed out by Bendis during the run).
As for the legal particulars. Remember this is the Marvel Universe where vigilantes are supported by law enforcement(despite the fact that in real life, vigilantism is pretty much always a bad thing). Also when he was incarcerated during Bendis run, there were corrupt officials involved. We all remember the big fuss made over the Registration Act in Civil War, yet its already like the issues brought up in that event are forgotten by the Marvel Universe at large. The issues you have with Daredevil can also be leveled at the whole Marvel line.
Another reason why I think it makes sense is amply illustrated on the Daredevil Secret Identity page on this website. |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Captain America is a public figure,and a living legend in and out of costume, and he has little to know personal life so to me his outing makes sense. Tony Stark is a billionaire playboy and a self centered genius who loves attention and has the best security money can buy,his outing makes sense.Matt Murdock is a mysterious urban ninja who also happens to be a lawyer/vigilante his outing doesn't fit his character unless you change him completely like Waid has done.Murdock isn't into the whole attention celebrity thing,he hated every bit of the attention he was getting when he was fighting the media when he was outed in the Bendis run, the last thing he would do is out himself publicly like that,it made no sense and was completely out of character. It fits certain characters but it's no mistake that when they tried it with Spider-Man it immediately reverted back to the status quo,because in order for it to work you have to kill a part of Spider-Man which would be Peter Parker,same goes for Matt Murdock imo. I wouldn't say DD not asking for help is arrogant,DD already made it clear that he didn't wanna bring the mess he was going through down on the other heroes.DD also has really never been great friends with any of the Avengers at the time except for Spider-Man and Cage so I could understand why he wouldn't wanna go bother them with his massive problems. The less we see of the Avengers in DD the better,DD is at it's best when it remains grounded in reality and away from all the meaningless big events as much as possible. I also think there is a difference between hero worship and hero celebrities in the Marvel U.I could DD having a fan base but I can't see DD willingly reveal his secret to the court and become a celebrity,not after the hell he went through in the Bendis run with the media,it's one thing to be rumored about being DD but it's another thing entirely for them to know he's DD 100% without a doubt. Eventually like all news I think it would've died down if it was left alone. There should be nothing stopping an army of villains from coning to his house in California which is away from mostly all the super heroes and throw a bunch of sonic grenades and stink bombs in it and kill him,at least Captain America lives in a secret location given to him by Nick Fury. Murdock is completely out in the open and his house was on TV.It makes no sense why he hasn't been invaded by now,unless he lives in a cartoony world which happens to be what the series has become. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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It's common knowledge that Bendis wrote the whole "Out" story with no idea how to restore the secret identity. Indeed, when he left the series, it was really up to Ed Brubaker to tie up all of Bendis' loose threads. Ever since Bendis' identity crisis (which by my count was Daredevil's FIFTH identity crisis, which includes the one in Bob Gale's "Playing To The Camera" which immediately preceded Bendis' takeover as writer) all of the villains call Daredevil "Murdock." For all of Brubaker's dapper trying to stuff it back in the bottle with Vanessa Fisk's help, it was common knowledge. So, ever since Volume 2, Daredevil's identity was sort of in this wishy-washy "well, it's kind of secret, but not really" place, and that's pretty lame. Eventually, someone had to make a decision and decide whether it's a secret or not. Neither decision would make everyone happy, but I guess a decision was made.
For me, because of the dire straits Foggy was in, and how over a barrel the Serpants had Matt, it made sense within the story. I'm not enjoying Volume 4 the way I enjoyed Volume 3, but I'm far from dropping the book.
But, in my view, if anyone is unhappy with the way the identity has been made public, I think you can trace the "problem" all the way to Bendis creating a problem without any idea of how to resolve it. |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes,he should have fixed it before he left but Diggle really didn't mess with it.I think the writers should have just let sleepy dogs lie. DD's identity is important to his character |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Daredevil24 wrote: | | Yes,he should have fixed it before he left but Diggle really didn't mess with it.I think the writers should have just let sleepy dogs lie. DD's identity is important to his character |
But it wasn't a sleeping dog. This site has a chart that shows how sloppy Daredevil has always been with his secret identity. As I stated previously, Bendis' was the fifth identity crisis (at the least). Bendis opened up the wound, and just left it open. And during Shadowland, Bullseye called him "Matt". Everyone called him "Matt." His secret identity was this undefined mess.
Some of Daredevil's highest regarded runs have come in this period when his identity was less than secret. I don't fully understand why some of these comics are this highly regarded, but to each their own. If these comics are successful at all, then I would have to challenge the idea that Daredevil's identity is really that important to his character. |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| It is crucial to his role as a Lawyer. Being a Lawyer vigilante is a really interesting concept, breaking the law while upholding it at the same time was unique. It's not that the villains know that bothers me it's that the world knows. And while their has been times where he was sloppy with his secret, it didn't really play a huge role in the series until Bendis made it,all the other times were easily forgotten about.Miller(not counting Born Again ) Nocenti O'neil and Chickhester until fall from grace made it a sleepy dog. Matt Murdock as a celebrity just doesn't work for me and I hope Marvel erases the outing altogether.He works better as a mysterious vigilante |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | Bendis opened up the wound, and just left it open. |
It wasn't a "wound" under Bendis--it was the source of one of the best runs of stories in DD's history. Leaving open, as the status quo, the question of whether Murdock is or isn't Daredevil takes (and could have continued to take) the book in all kinds of interesting new directions. Waid's direction isn't one of them. |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Daredevil24 wrote: | | It is crucial to his role as a Lawyer. Being a Lawyer vigilante is a really interesting concept, breaking the law while upholding it at the same time was unique. |
It's a fundamental element of the DD myth, and, of course, something that can't exist if everything about him is public knowledge.
| Daredevil24 wrote: | | It's not that the villains know that bothers me it's that the world knows. |
And, to be clear, the villains, for the most part, don't know; they just suspect (the Owl knows, and, of course, the Kingpin has known for years). |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | Daredevil24 wrote: | | It is crucial to his role as a Lawyer. Being a Lawyer vigilante is a really interesting concept, breaking the law while upholding it at the same time was unique. |
It's a fundamental element of the DD myth, and, of course, something that can't exist if everything about him is public knowledge.
| Daredevil24 wrote: | | It's not that the villains know that bothers me it's that the world knows. |
And, to be clear, the villains, for the most part, don't know; they just suspect (the Owl knows, and, of course, the Kingpin has known for years). |
Except here is the thing, most super villains don't have a high regard human life in general, so if a violent murderous super villain suspects Matt Murdock is Daredevil because they read it in the papers, they have no reason not to act on it. Some like Mr. Hyde and Jigsaw did act on suspicion. If the villain was wrong and Matt wasn't DD, they wouldn't care, its just one more dead civilian, many villains murder civilians for far less.
Even before Bendis' outing a lot of villains knew Matt's ID: Kingpin (and a large part of his organization), Mr. Fear, Typhoid Mary, Elektra (when she was considered a villain), Mysterio, etc.
It seems like most of Matt's rogues gallery would know if they just compared notes, even before the Bendis ' outing. DD is just likely his rogues gallery is not united or organized in any way (there hasn't been a major anti DD villain in a long well, since Typhoid Mary put together one in the 80s). How do you put in the genie back in the bottle, when half of his rogues gallery knew even before the outing?
The general public may have forgotten DD was Matt over time, these petty vengeful super villains would not. |
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admiralpetty
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Kalispell, MT
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | And, to be clear, the villains, for the most part, don't know; they just suspect (the Owl knows, and, of course, the Kingpin has known for years). |
Suspecting is enough in the case of super villains though, if Daredevil is giving you problems, just go after Murdock or one of his associates. The fact that Daredevil is always around when something bad happens to them, plus the media frenzy from Bendis' run is more than enough for a sadistic villain to put two and two together, whether they know for sure or not.
| Dimetre wrote: | | For me, because of the dire straits Foggy was in, and how over a barrel the Serpants had Matt, it made sense within the story. I'm not enjoying Volume 4 the way I enjoyed Volume 3, but I'm far from dropping the book. |
This I agree with. Once again, not getting into Waid's run specifically, I can see genuine reasons why Matt would reveal his identity.
One of those would be the death of the judge(his name eludes me at the moment) way back in The Death of Jean Dewolff arc in Spider-Man. In that story Daredevil didn't act quickly enough because he was worried about his secret identity, otherwise he more than likely would have been able to stop the Sin-Eater and save the Judge, who was also a good friend. In that story it is obvious that his decision weighs upon him quite heavily. It seems logical that DD would not want something like that to happen ever again, and would do everything in his power to prevent it.
Being the heroic character that he is, its not unthinkable that he would sacrifice his identity to prevent something like that from happening, we already know he would sacrifice his life for his friends anyhow.
| Dimetre wrote: | But it wasn't a sleeping dog. This site has a chart that shows how sloppy Daredevil has always been with his secret identity. As I stated previously, Bendis' was the fifth identity crisis (at the least). Bendis opened up the wound, and just left it open. And during Shadowland, Bullseye called him "Matt". Everyone called him "Matt." His secret identity was this undefined mess.
Some of Daredevil's highest regarded runs have come in this period when his identity was less than secret. I don't fully understand why some of these comics are this highly regarded, but to each their own. If these comics are successful at all, then I would have to challenge the idea that Daredevil's identity is really that important to his character. |
This is also an excellent point. |
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Jonny_Anonymous
Flying Blind
Joined: 18 Jun 2014
Posts: 15
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| WHo cares if the bad guys know/think Matt is Daredevil? That's fine, you can get some good noir stories out of that. That's not what the problem is, the problem is the entire world knowing 100% who Daredevil is, how his powers work and where he lives. And all this with zero consequences. I mean it's like Waid think's he's writing Booster Gold now or something. |
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admiralpetty
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Kalispell, MT
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| Posted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Jonny_Anonymous wrote: | | WHo cares if the bad guys know/think Matt is Daredevil? That's fine, you can get some good noir stories out of that. That's not what the problem is, the problem is the entire world knowing 100% who Daredevil is, how his powers work and where he lives. And all this with zero consequences. I mean it's like Waid think's he's writing Booster Gold now or something. |
What are these consequences from the rest of the world though. What is a worse consequence for Matt than having a villain kill one of his friends or loved ones. Bendis already sent him to jail and Brubaker got him back out, with consequences for the corrupt officials involved.
This a universe where Norman Osborne became the head of national security after he was previously outed as the Green Goblin. Public outcry led to Registration Act, yet now no one cares anymore. In this universe, Daredevil's identity may make a splash initially, but it in the long run, it is yesterday's news.
I love noir Daredevil stories, Miller's run is my favorite DD run, and I'm doubtful that another run will ever top it, at least in my eyes. I feel that there can still be dark gritty noir stories told when the hero doesn't have a secret identity.
All of this said, I'm fine if a future writer puts the genie back in the bottle. I will follow DD either way, I just feel that good writers can write excellent DD stories either way. |
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Marcus Plato
Flying Blind
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:58 am Post subject: |
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I'm just gonna say what a lot of us (not all) are thinking;
We miss Daredevil as the AWESOME book that it was, and fear for the future. |
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