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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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 Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:06 pm Post subject: Should Daredevil Continue to Borrow Villains |
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In Waid's run, Daredevil has been fighting a lot of other hero's villains like Mole Man and Klaw. So should DD continue to borrow other heroes villains or should their be more focus on DD's rogues gallery?
There are pros and cons to DD borrowing villains from other villains, on one hand it is fun to have DD fight villains he normally wouldn't fight. On the other hand, Mole Man and Klaw are not going to become part of DD's permanent rogues gallery, they have too much history with the FF and Black Panther. Sure Kingpin became DD's arch nemesis, but the Spider-Man writers were not planning to use him back then and Miller did established many of the things that made Kingpin iconic in his DD run, including his real name. Would the FF writers or Black Panther writers want to give up Klaw and Mole Man and could Klaw have a better rivalry with DD rather then Black Panther, because Klaw killed BP's father.
So well it is fun to have DD fight some villains from heroes, you really can't build up a rogues gallery for DD with borrowed villains, so well its fun, there has to be an effort to gave DD his own rogues gallery. |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Well since everybody seems to borrow his women, why not? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Daredevil24 wrote: | | Well since everybody seems to borrow his women, why not? |
Well to give that question a serious answer, it would be hard to remove the perception that DD is a B-lister, if all he does is borrow other people's villains.
Like I said before, it is fun to watch DD fight villains he has never fought before, but there is also a benefit to building up his own rogues gallery, its all about balance.
Last edited by The Overlord on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I was being serious,but anyways I think DD has good villains that just need some better writing.I think Purple Man could be a great villain.I think Paladin could be a good villain.It would be interesting to see Lady Death Strike come back and confront him.I think a lot of his villains just need a make over like Brubaker did for Mr.Fear.As far as him being taken as a B lister goes,I think for that to change Marvel has to take him more seriously.He needs to be more involved in the universe for one and I think he needs to drop his happy go lucky Spidey persona.I also think he should be an Avenger and if not that then why not bring back the Marvel Knights team and have him lead it.I think its time he step up.And lastly I think they need to leave all the blind jokes alone I don't mind it every so often but i've had just about all I can handle recenty.DD works best when he's taken seriously.And they should give him a game or an animitaed movie I really feel like he could be Marvel's answer to Batman. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Daredevil24 wrote: | | I was being serious,but anyways I think DD has good villains that just need some better writing.I think Purple Man could be a great villain.I think Paladin could be a good villain.It would be interesting to see Lady Death Strike come back and confront him.I think a lot of his villains just need a make over like Brubaker did for Mr.Fear.As far as him being taken as a B lister goes,I think for that to change Marvel has to take him more seriously.He needs to be more involved in the universe for one and I think he needs to drop his happy go lucky Spidey persona.I also think he should be an Avenger and if not that then why not bring back the Marvel Knights team and have him lead it.I think its time he step up.And lastly I think they need to leave all the blind jokes alone I don't mind it every so often but i've had just about all I can handle recenty.DD works best when he's taken seriously.And they should give him a game or an animitaed movie I really feel like he could be Marvel's answer to Batman. |
Well the problem is DD has not fought Purple Man in 25 years, so there have been some good Purple Man stories in the past decade, but none of them have involved DD.
Deathstrike is an X-Men villain now, she has way too much personal baggage with Wolverine to be a member of DD's rogues gallery, she has switched rogues gallery the same way Kingpin switched. She would be another guest villain at this point.
Really most of DD's rogues gallery besides Kingpin and Bullseye only gets used very sparingly. Bullet, Bushwacker, Mr. Hyde, Mr. Fear, Owl, etc are only used once in a blue moon and that is not getting into characters who have not been used since the 80s.
It seems like DD is either fighting Kingpin, Bullseye, ninjas or is borrowing villains from other heroes. Its hard to have a good rogues gallery when you either rely on one or two villains or just borrow villains from other heroes.
Heck you can take a concept from the past and revamp it: instead of the Wildboys being just two street punks, make it a whole street gang, low level workers for the likes of Kingpin. Introduce a new Masked Marauder and have a mystery about who he or she really is. Take a lame villain like Jester and give him a better back story.
Though from the previews of Daredevil 25, it looks like DD is getting an interesting new villain to fight, so that is a start.
Last edited by The Overlord on Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| I guess you're right on many points.I will also agree that Daredevil 25 looks very interesting despite me not being a fan of Mark Waid;s run |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| DD doesn't need to have a bigger rogues gallery, he already has enough on his own, and if from time to time he fights villains from the other corners of the Marvel Universe it is because he simply is part of that universe. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | DD doesn't need to have a bigger rogues gallery, he already has enough on his own, and if from time to time he fights villains from the other corners of the Marvel Universe it is because he simply is part of that universe. |
Well if someone creates a new villain and that new villain works really well, I think that is net benefit for DD overall. It seems like Ikari fills the role of a villain that is a dark reflection of the hero, which is not really being present in DD's rogues gallery before.
Other characters are in the same universe, but Spidey doesn't seem to fight other people's villains as much as DD does.
Yeah DD has own rogues gallery, but with the exception of Bullseye, Kingpin and the Hand, they seem to show up once in a blue moon and often play very generic and forgettable roles in the story lines, its not like Bullet or Mr. Hyde's appearances in the Bendis era were that important.
Again the problem with borrowing villains all the time, is DD can't form a long term rivalry with those characters, because they belong to other heroes. How often can Mole Man or Klaw show up in DD, when the FF and BP writers have dibs on them? You need more villains DD can have personal rivalry with, rather then a bunch of guest shot villains.
Now there is nothing wrong with DD fighting another hero's villain sometimes, that can be fun, but you need to build up his own rogues gallery as well. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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with Coyote it makes two villains already created for DD in a short time, four if we count Calavera and Lady Bullseye, and that didn't really do much for improving DD's stories anyway. A story can be good or bad, doesn't matter if it uses borrowed, old or new villains.
The way I see it, there's nothing wrong in DD "borrowing" villains. Heck, the avengers have been borrowing villains for ages and it works fine. As for spidey, he has an enormous number of villains in his rogue gallery, more than anybody else. But that's because it's simply Spider-man. Daredevil doesn't need to become like Spider-man. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | with Coyote it makes two villains already created for DD in a short time, four if we count Calavera and Lady Bullseye, and that didn't really do much for improving DD's stories anyway. A story can be good or bad, doesn't matter if it uses borrowed, old or new villains. |
People really seem to really like Coyote though. The problem with Lady Bullseye is she is just a female version of male villain and I don't like those types of villains, they are not very imaginative. A female version of hero can be good, because that female version often plays off the male version, be either an ally or apprentice of the male hero. A female villain often just comes off as a female version of a male villain. The only female version of a male villain I like is Harley Quinn, because she plays off well with Joker and Poison Ivy. Frankly I really think DD didn't need another female ninja assassin villain, DD already has enough of those and Lady Bullseye just comes off as rather derivative at this point.
We have not seen Ikari in action yet, but the look and concept looks good and I have high hopes for the character.
I think its good to try to revamp old rogues and create new ones, in order to really build up a rogues gallery.
| Francesco wrote: |
The way I see it, there's nothing wrong in DD "borrowing" villains. Heck, the avengers have been borrowing villains for ages and it works fine. As for spidey, he has an enormous number of villains in his rogue gallery, more than anybody else. But that's because it's simply Spider-man. Daredevil doesn't need to become like Spider-man. |
Well the thing is the Avengers have Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and many other heroes in their roster, so most of their rogues galleries can become Avenger villains, every time there is a Masters of Evil group, its made up of members of the Avengers; rogues gallery. Heck most DCU villains can be considered DCU villains, considering most major DCU villains can become JLA villains. Lex Luthor hates Superman and since Superman is a major character in the JLA, its easy for Lex transfer his hatred of Superman to the entire team and create a anti JLA team.
With singular heroes, they naturally have a smaller rogues gallery then a group of heroes who have their own rogues galleries. Iron Man for example, has mostly used his own rogues gallery for the past couple years: he has had clashes with Zeke Stane, Justine Hammer, the Mandarin, Spy Master, the Ghost and a bunch of other members of his own rogues gallery in recent times. Iron Man has a smaller rogues gallery like DD, but it seems like the writers are willing to use them more then most of the DD villains.
There is nothing wrong with DD borrowing villains now and again, but it would be a good idea for some writer to try and do something new and interesting with DD's rogues gallery. |
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abcdavid01
Flying Blind
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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So, is Ikari going to be like DD's Venom from now on?
If Coyote does return, I want more of a back story and motivation. |
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yudansha
Flying Blind
Joined: 25 Dec 2012
Posts: 18
Location: USA, Georgia
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2013 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Man for just being in one issue, I really liked Ikari as a villain and can deff. see him as a venom like character for Matt (dark version of the good guy). I would really like to know more about him and I hope he is around for awhile.
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1derman
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:19 am Post subject: |
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I never saw the logic behind super heroes having a set of villains who are just for them. Arch enemies make sense. Every super hero should have a bad guy who he's constantly at odds with. It can even be a good handful of archenemies like spidey's sinister six.. But a whole wide range of villains only getting fought by certain heroes makes no sense. Daredevil should take on any villain who contributes to crime in hell's kitchen. That's what he's claimed as the neighborhood he protects. It shouldn't matter if it's the sinister six. If the purple man was robbing a bank across the street from Avengers mansion, would Captain America call up Daredevil and ask him to come round him up like it's his pet that got loose?
For a long time Daredevil has been a slightly more mature super hero comic, and the villains tend to be more real, committing more realistic crimes and what not. |
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1derman
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| abcdavid01 wrote: | So, is Ikari going to be like DD's Venom from now on?
If Coyote does return, I want more of a back story and motivation. |
I agree with you. I want both Ikari and Coyote to be a presence in Matt's life like Bullseye was for so long. I'm hoping Bullseye will die soon though |
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daredevil-art
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 165
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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I've always considered the Marvel Universe one (for the most part) universe where any hero could have a run in with any villain. I've never felt DD was "stealing" villains.
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