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Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
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The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.
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Slim Sandy
Flying Blind
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Stanley wrote: |
...For the record, none of this was directed at you, Slim. I guess this is just a touchier subject to me than even I knew. |
heh, no worries there bud, didnt think it was |
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: |
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| fox_limbo wrote: | | I'm ba-aack!! (Yeah, that's right, you've been warned) |
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| fox_limbo wrote: | | But in this sort of thing, it always comes back to Karen Page and Milla Donovan, doesn't it? It sure as hell seems that way. |
...yes. Always. Not Elektra. Not Black Widow. Just Karen Page and the character created 2-3 years ago with very little attention paid to her.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | that point, as much as it has been overlooked by Bendis and, to this point, Brubaker, it is a legitiamate reason that Matt Murdock would fall for her as he had... both these characters are personifications and advocates of Hell's Kitchen, fighting to defend the place they live and love... her intrigrity alone warrants his affections). |
I'm gonna guess you mean "integrity". "Intrigrity" ~should~ be a word, but it's not, according to dictionary.com. But I don't think her integrity alone warrants his affections. You don't see him loving on Spiderman or marrying Foggy. And we may just share a difference of opinion here, but I'm pretty sure it takes more than a couple of guest appearances of more substance than whining and complaining to establish someone's integrity. Sorry fat girls, I don't care how honest you are, you're not getting my affections. I'm shallow, yes...but I like integrity too.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | Her roller coaster of emotions (and yes, this includes the "whiny" damsel in distress moment) are, arguably, as close to anyone else's response if they were caught in the same circumstances. Lest we forget, women are emotional, moody, sensual creatures that, at times, change their minds and then second-guess those mind-changes (and that part of the reason why we love 'em, as frustrating as it tends to be at times). |
First of all, just let the record show that I've never written something this inflammatory. Nothing like broad generalizations to pigeon-hole HALF THE PLANET.
If you're having women problems, you just haven't found the right woman.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | With all that, Milla Donovan has been potrtrayed remarkably well. |
I disagree. "A person who might date Matt Murdock and deal with finding out about his duel identity" has been portrayed passibly. I know nothing more about Milla Donovan than the bare essentials. She's not even a character to me yet, just a two-dimensional place-holder. Maybe that's why she annoys me so.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | They balence each other out. Without one or the other (as shoddy as it was to take Miss Page completely out of the equation), the ballance falls out of whack. That is why I don't have such a huge problem with Karen's death (regardless if it was a B-List... or even Z-List villain that orchestrated the whole thing, although, it is poetic that Bulleye was involved --and, damn, doesn't that make great superhero / supervillain fodder, even if it copies the whole Elektra Nachios thing?). It makes sense that Matt would be "lost" without Karen. They (i.e. Bendis) came close to outright saying it with the whole "emotional breakdown thing", which was more of a cheap explanation, all things considered; instead of something that should have been explored more deeply. |
Great. They BALANCE each other out. So you don't have a problem with her death because it makes sense that he would be lost without her. So far, so good.
...Except for the fact that it's only mentioned immediately following, then when Foggy tells him to retire, then the Bullseye showdown, then with Ben Urich. Yeah, great. You know when Karen should come up? EVERY SINGLE TIME HE MEETS A WOMAN. Instead, we've gotten "oh by the way, Karen's still dead and maybe the only thread I've got linking events--events that could stand alone fine without this explanation, mind you--is by name-dropping her and her death." A person can end up in the situations Matt did if they share his personality traits. They DON'T have to share his relationship history. Since that's the case, what good comes from mentioning Karen?
Oh, and you don't mind that it was a B-lister that was behind her death? I suppose then that when it's Joe Chill who kills Batman's parents, you sit satisfied, instead of how you ~should~ feel ("WHO THE F*CK IS THIS GUY TO KILL HIS PARENTS? HE'S NOTHING!"). There's a reason why Maid Marian was about to marry the Sheriff of Nottingham. There's a reason why we know how William Barrett Travis died but not Davy Crockett.
Grand heroes and villains gravitate towards each other. They BOTH deserve it.
Daredevil doesn't deserve Mysterio. Or maybe that should be "Mysterio doesn't deserve Daredevil". How dare anyone tell me otherwise.
| fox_limbo wrote: |
Just, as Stanley, pointed out, Peter Parker was after the loss of Gwen Stacy. |
Namedropping me=ratings.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | As important as Karen Page was to Matt and to the entire Daredevil mythology, the meloncholy aftermath of her death should have been handled with more deliberate care. Seeing as how it wasn't, a return of Karen Page would be as shallow as her death. |
I also disagree here. Righting a wrong isn't "shallow". It's "what should be done".
Also, earlier someone said something to the effect of "Miller killed Karen, just not literally." On the contrary, Miller made Karen relevant again. Sure, at the beginning, she started on the negative side of the ledger, but you turn to the last page of Born Again and point out to me where Karen was a dead woman walking. I submit you can't. |
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| fox_limbo wrote: | I'm ba-aack!! (Yeah, that's right, you've been warned)
....
I'm a fan of the Milla Donovan character (and yes, that is even minus the flaunting of her lingerie collection). I think she has been pretty well developed, to this point, as a viable character in the Daredevil / Matt Murdock mythology. That said, she hasn't been fleshed out (uh, no pun intended) as completely as she should be (i.e. we have not seen the "Hell's Kitchen Advocate" at work, we've only been told about it... such a textured detail has been skimmed over, as it was pointed out earlier in this thread; that point, as much as it has been overlooked by Bendis and, to this point, Brubaker, it is a legitiamate reason that Matt Murdock would fall for her as he had... both these characters are personifications and advocates of Hell's Kitchen, fighting to defend the place they live and love... her intrigrity alone warrants his affections). I am waiting to see how Bru handles / deepens Milla Donovan. It was discussed earlier, and they are spot-on, that Milla (to this point) has represented what it would be like to be in a relationship with a person like Matt Murdock. Her roller coaster of emotions (and yes, this includes the "whiny" damsel in distress moment) are, arguably, as close to anyone else's response if they were caught in the same circumstances. Lest we forget, women are emotional, moody, sensual creatures that, at times, change their minds and then second-guess those mind-changes (and that part of the reason why we love 'em, as frustrating as it tends to be at times). With all that, Milla Donovan has been potrtrayed remarkably well.
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First, glad to see you back, fox!
Next...whaddaya mean emotional and moody?  If Milla had been as cold as Elektra and Natasha could be at times, then I would have doubted how good a character she could be. I do think that Bendis gave us more than Maleev's girlfriend (wife now) in her undies when he scripted her into Matt's life.
Milla was never the whiny, bratty thing that Heather was. I really, really hated Heather. I didn't consider Milla to be a weak character, either, just one that hasn't been explored nearly as much as I would like yet. I don't think she will go away.
I agree with JC (what's that sound? Hell freezing over?) about Matt and Milla's meeting being one of the most romantic moments in comics. Maleev did such a sensational job of that scene in Matt's office that it's one that I really love to read over and over. How many times has the Man Without Fear become nearly speechless? The following scene with Foggy in the basement is just about as good. Definitely one of my faves.
I don't want to see Karen come back, but at the rate of surprises we've been having...
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Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Darediva wrote: |
I agree with JC (what's that sound? Hell freezing over?) about Matt and Milla's meeting being one of the most romantic moments in comics. Maleev did such a sensational job of that scene in Matt's office that it's one that I really love to read over and over. How many times has the Man Without Fear become nearly speechless? The following scene with Foggy in the basement is just about as good. Definitely one of my faves.
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I was actually talking about the scene where they go through the plate glass window. I'm not kidding.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I agree with JC (what's that sound? Hell freezing over?) about Matt and Milla's meeting being one of the most romantic moments in comics. Maleev did such a sensational job of that scene in Matt's office that it's one that I really love to read over and over. How many times has the Man Without Fear become nearly speechless? The following scene with Foggy in the basement is just about as good. Definitely one of my faves. |
Even if I don't like Milla as a character, I agree that Bendis did a great job at depicting Matt's love towards her. |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
I was actually talking about the scene where they go through the plate glass window. I'm not kidding. |
I was thinking the exact same thing. That was a hell of a first meeting.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Bendis really did a good job in depicting Matt's love towards Milla. Still, I think Matt deserves better. |
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Darediva wrote: |
I agree with JC (what's that sound? Hell freezing over?) about Matt and Milla's meeting being one of the most romantic moments in comics. Maleev did such a sensational job of that scene in Matt's office that it's one that I really love to read over and over. How many times has the Man Without Fear become nearly speechless? The following scene with Foggy in the basement is just about as good. Definitely one of my faves.
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I was actually talking about the scene where they go through the plate glass window. I'm not kidding. |
Oh, yeah, they had me at that moment, and it was just pure "saved by the superhero" bliss. Wonderful stuff, where Matt realises the person he just saved is also blind, and how he calmly takes care of her and makes certain she has help on the way. One of my fave panels of all time is where Milla reaches up to her rescuer and touches the mask. *Sigh*
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Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's hard to not love Milla's early encounters with Matt. Great work by both Bendis and Maleev!
...I think that I'm not a big Milla fan, right now, because I'm thinking about her more recent appearances in The Murdock Papers and Brubaker's work. This is all we've seen of Milla since King of Hell's Kitchen, and in every case she kind of came across as helpless and weak.
...Sure, in each case, she was put in situations that any normal person with sight would not be able to deal with, let alone a blind person. So, I'm not knocking Milla, or her character, but at the same time, as of right now, I'm not a big fan of her. We haven't seen a lot of fearless strength from her lately. Compare her with Pre-Smith Karen and it's hard to pick Milla over Karen, in my mind.
If you ask me, Matt and Karen were meant to be more than Spidey and M.J. They should be the Lois and Clark of the Marvel U, only with infinitely more humanity, drama, and DD style grit. 
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fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Stanley wrote: | | fox_limbo wrote: | | I'm ba-aack!! (Yeah, that's right, you've been warned) |
...
| fox_limbo wrote: | | But in this sort of thing, it always comes back to Karen Page and Milla Donovan, doesn't it? It sure as hell seems that way. |
...yes. Always. Not Elektra. Not Black Widow. Just Karen Page and the character created 2-3 years ago with very little attention paid to her.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | that point, as much as it has been overlooked by Bendis and, to this point, Brubaker, it is a legitiamate reason that Matt Murdock would fall for her as he had... both these characters are personifications and advocates of Hell's Kitchen, fighting to defend the place they live and love... her intrigrity alone warrants his affections). |
I'm gonna guess you mean "integrity". "Intrigrity" ~should~ be a word, but it's not, according to dictionary.com. But I don't think her integrity alone warrants his affections. You don't see him loving on Spiderman or marrying Foggy. And we may just share a difference of opinion here, but I'm pretty sure it takes more than a couple of guest appearances of more substance than whining and complaining to establish someone's integrity. Sorry fat girls, I don't care how honest you are, you're not getting my affections. I'm shallow, yes...but I like integrity too.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | Her roller coaster of emotions (and yes, this includes the "whiny" damsel in distress moment) are, arguably, as close to anyone else's response if they were caught in the same circumstances. Lest we forget, women are emotional, moody, sensual creatures that, at times, change their minds and then second-guess those mind-changes (and that part of the reason why we love 'em, as frustrating as it tends to be at times). |
First of all, just let the record show that I've never written something this inflammatory. Nothing like broad generalizations to pigeon-hole HALF THE PLANET.
If you're having women problems, you just haven't found the right woman.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | With all that, Milla Donovan has been potrtrayed remarkably well. |
I disagree. "A person who might date Matt Murdock and deal with finding out about his duel identity" has been portrayed passibly. I know nothing more about Milla Donovan than the bare essentials. She's not even a character to me yet, just a two-dimensional place-holder. Maybe that's why she annoys me so.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | They balence each other out. Without one or the other (as shoddy as it was to take Miss Page completely out of the equation), the ballance falls out of whack. That is why I don't have such a huge problem with Karen's death (regardless if it was a B-List... or even Z-List villain that orchestrated the whole thing, although, it is poetic that Bulleye was involved --and, damn, doesn't that make great superhero / supervillain fodder, even if it copies the whole Elektra Nachios thing?). It makes sense that Matt would be "lost" without Karen. They (i.e. Bendis) came close to outright saying it with the whole "emotional breakdown thing", which was more of a cheap explanation, all things considered; instead of something that should have been explored more deeply. |
Great. They BALANCE each other out. So you don't have a problem with her death because it makes sense that he would be lost without her. So far, so good.
...Except for the fact that it's only mentioned immediately following, then when Foggy tells him to retire, then the Bullseye showdown, then with Ben Urich. Yeah, great. You know when Karen should come up? EVERY SINGLE TIME HE MEETS A WOMAN. Instead, we've gotten "oh by the way, Karen's still dead and maybe the only thread I've got linking events--events that could stand alone fine without this explanation, mind you--is by name-dropping her and her death." A person can end up in the situations Matt did if they share his personality traits. They DON'T have to share his relationship history. Since that's the case, what good comes from mentioning Karen?
Oh, and you don't mind that it was a B-lister that was behind her death? I suppose then that when it's Joe Chill who kills Batman's parents, you sit satisfied, instead of how you ~should~ feel ("WHO THE F*CK IS THIS GUY TO KILL HIS PARENTS? HE'S NOTHING!"). There's a reason why Maid Marian was about to marry the Sheriff of Nottingham. There's a reason why we know how William Barrett Travis died but not Davy Crockett.
Grand heroes and villains gravitate towards each other. They BOTH deserve it.
Daredevil doesn't deserve Mysterio. Or maybe that should be "Mysterio doesn't deserve Daredevil". How dare anyone tell me otherwise.
| fox_limbo wrote: |
Just, as Stanley, pointed out, Peter Parker was after the loss of Gwen Stacy. |
Namedropping me=ratings.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | As important as Karen Page was to Matt and to the entire Daredevil mythology, the meloncholy aftermath of her death should have been handled with more deliberate care. Seeing as how it wasn't, a return of Karen Page would be as shallow as her death. |
I also disagree here. Righting a wrong isn't "shallow". It's "what should be done".
Also, earlier someone said something to the effect of "Miller killed Karen, just not literally." On the contrary, Miller made Karen relevant again. Sure, at the beginning, she started on the negative side of the ledger, but you turn to the last page of Born Again and point out to me where Karen was a dead woman walking. I submit you can't. |
Touche! Good argument.
I do have to give you credit, you are dead right on a couple points.
Your sarcasm regarding my "it all comes down to Milla and Karen" statement there had me laughing. Seriously. Not quite rolling on the floor, pissing myself... but close enough.
Karen Page vs. Milla Donovan, Natasha Romanov vs. Elektra Natchios, Apples vs. Apples, Oranges vs. Oranges...
I should have stated this more clearly. Let me (and my misspelled words and habitual run-on sentences) try again...
On this messageboard, since Milla made her appearance (and, to me, the initial meeting of Matt and Milla was rather abrupt and forced; even with the moment of budding romance between the two in a bed of shards of glass, I do not exactly share JC and Darediva's enthusiasm, but it was nice... not great), there has been a recycling of the same argument. Karen Page vs. Milla Donovan. When I said "it comes down to those two", that's what I meant. Damn my blinder-wearing mind's eye as I get in some sort of absent-minded word-smithing "zone"!
Still, Karen Page and Milla Donovan are the non-superhero-esque women in Matt's life (lest we not forget about Heather Glenn, but let's excuse her from this, because my tunnel-visioned mind's eye can't juggle more than those two  ..honestly, I don't know that much about Heather Glenn, so humor me and leave her, and the other women that have sauntered seductively in and out of Matt's life, out of this). Whereas, Natasha and Elektra are in their own catagory.
As far as *gasp* a B-List wanna-be like Mysterio orchestrating Karen's death, it really doesn't bother me. Crap happens... and you run the risk of that gamble ten-fold when you have a vigilante hobby like Matt Murdock. Crap happens and the crimson tights are a magnet for fate's fierce fist. It doesn't bother me, just as Joe Chill killing Bruce Wayne's parents doesn't bother me (what bothered me most was the creative liscence the Tim Burton flick made when the Jack Nicholson pre-Joker character was scripted as having done it... as far as possible ret-cons in the Batman comics, I am remarkably out of the loop. I've read, on-and-off, for years; and more off than on in recent years, outside of the occassional Jeff Loeb / Jim Lee "Hush" issue, at the time). Karen's death was almost expected, just as the attempt on Foggy Nelson in recent issues.
More than her death (which was a shock-value hack job, creatively speaking... regardless of the potry in Bullseye being culprit or not), it was the way her post-mortem was handled (which was "not at all") that infuriated me the most. As "important" as Karen Page was to Matt Murdock, and how she provided a balance (thanks for the spelling lesson, Stanley) in Matt's life. The mourning of her death left a lot to be desired. I was slack-jawingly shocked and then absolutely infuriated with her death in the Daredevil title, after time, I managed to accept it. What's done is done. But the fact that Matt only attended her funeral and serenaded Natasha with meloncholy piano playing. And that was it.
As powerfully done as Gwen Stacy's death and the ripple-effects in the Spider-Man mythology was, Karen Page's death and the lack of post-mortem is on the other extreme of the spectrum. It was poorly, poorly considered / handled. And that is saying it mildly. So, with the emotional rift still lingering for Daredevil fans, a Karen Page return to the pages of the monthly title would make sense. It was pointed out earlier, Matt and Karen could have been the Clark and Lois of the Marvel Universe, and we, as readers, were robbed of that.
All that considered, I am apprehensive of a return by Karen Page. It would be shallow... just as shallow as her death was.
Still, as Stanley pointed out, Karen was no longer in the Daredevil title, when Frank Miller (in an abundantly intelligent and emotional way) brought her back into the fold. If there is a writer that can pull it off again again, it would be Ed Brubaker. But I am greatly, greatly apprehensive of it.
What's done is done. Leave her rest in peace.
As far as my general comparison of women... well, if I offended anyone (i.e. Darediva), I apologize. Stanley is right, I was a bit out of line on that unfair generalization.
And like Stanley had commented on my lovelife (or the lack-thereof), I am going to sob, slinking off to find a tube of hand lotion and find peace of mind with Rosie as I contemplate the facist women in my loveless, meaningless existance. *Sigh* |
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Stanley
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 293
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| fox_limbo wrote: | | As far as *gasp* a B-List wanna-be like Mysterio orchestrating Karen's death, it really doesn't bother me. Crap happens... and you run the risk of that gamble ten-fold when you have a vigilante hobby like Matt Murdock. Crap happens and the crimson tights are a magnet for fate's fierce fist. It doesn't bother me, just as Joe Chill killing Bruce Wayne's parents doesn't bother me (what bothered me most was the creative liscence the Tim Burton flick made when the Jack Nicholson pre-Joker character was scripted as having done it... as far as possible ret-cons in the Batman comics, I am remarkably out of the loop. I've read, on-and-off, for years; and more off than on in recent years, outside of the occassional Jeff Loeb / Jim Lee "Hush" issue, at the time). Karen's death was almost expected, just as the attempt on Foggy Nelson in recent issues. |
You know, I actually get this argument. When it's done right, someone murdering another from a different stratum works. Like, say, Carlito's Way. It's supposed to hurt, and it's supposed to suck. That's life. Joe Chill doesn't anger me on a "understanding the fundamentals of comics" level, it angers me on a "I'm a Batman fan so I identify with Bruce Wayne" level. I agree with the choice since it means Batman will never be satisfied. It was a faceless nobody that did it, not some easily packaged evil. Mysterio angers me because the logic to even get him into the pages of Daredevil was that he WAS a B-list villain. It was just a weak excuse to begin with. And now somebody else's B-list, forgotten, and unimportant villain comes to play in MY sandbox and he breaks MY favorite toy?
I DON'T THINK SO~!
(And yeah, as you can imagine with my points above, Burton's "The Joker made Batman first" thing really didn't sit well with me. Anyway.)
I think you at least heard me out on this one, so I won't be hammering it home anymore should this continue.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | All that considered, I am apprehensive of a return by Karen Page. It would be shallow... just as shallow as her death was. |
But nobody asked you how apprehensive you were when they killed her. I'm not saying your opinion is unimportant--far from it. I'm saying, they're going to move forward with or without us. Nobody asked me if they should bring Bucky back. Or Jason Todd. But here we are, with storylines that actually make sense. Who knows? I'm willing to bet there are more than a few plotholes (besides the obvious one I mentioned above) in Guardian Devil that would give anyone the creative play necessary to bring Karen back in a plausible fashion.
And lastly, I wasn't kidding. You just haven't met the right woman for you yet.
When you know, you know.
Maybe I should start my own "Romantic Advice" thread. I'm pretty good at it... |
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fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Good stuff, Stanley. |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: | If Bru did decide to use Richard (and, again, we're only speculating folks) I bet he would use him with great effectivness--I'm basing this on the high standard of writing Bru has already demonstrated on this title. It's not the characters that make the writer great, it's how he USES them. To think that Bendis somehow owns the market on Richard Fisk is crazy.
rgj |
He DOES own the market on Richard Fisk. Mind you, it is just a tombstone with some flowers. 
I do not doubt that Bru could write a great Richard Fisk, but I think Bendis took it to the end with a "drunk loser with no backbone that can be easily manipulated." The exact opposite of his father really. That is what was so great about Bendis take on this. The Kingpin had a son that ended up so unlike him. The hate between them was going to get one of them killed and Bendis nailed that story.
If Aunt May can die and come back, then anyone can die and come back. That is the life of comicbooks. Sure, Richard can come back. I just don't think it is going to happen anytime soon. For now, Richard Fisk is more effective as a dead character than a living one. It shows how fearful people should be of Vanessa Fisk when she is in the room. It also may lead to a confrontation between her and Wilson. Point is, there are stories to be told concerning a dead Richard Fisk within that family that will make for an interesting read.
Bru will not revive this character and suddenly turn him into a mastermind manipulator.
Terrible suggestion.
C.
_________________
Love is blindness, I don't want to see
Won't you wrap the night around me |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| fox_limbo wrote: | | Still, Karen Page and Milla Donovan are the non-superhero-esque women in Matt's life |
Ah, I see what you're saying and I agree that neither have "powers" so to speak, but I still disagree with your statement. Thin line between superhero and non-superhero is not simply power. Villains can have powers. Also, those with powers do not always use them to be a superhero or villain. Also, powers are not a requirement. Look at Batman. In fact, I would say that post-Miller Karen Page was superhero-esque. Look at her work in the clinics, anti-pornography campaign, etc. From Born Again, Karen has been an excellent parallel to Matt, with no less will and spirit than him.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | the way her post-mortem was handled (which was "not at all") that infuriated me the most. |
Smith's final issue and Parts of a Hole were beginning to do a great job of dealing with her post-mortem treatment.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | The mourning of her death left a lot to be desired. |
...I agree with this too because I think future writers (Bendis and Gale) didn't sufficiently address her.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | All that considered, I am apprehensive of a return by Karen Page. It would be shallow... just as shallow as her death was. |
I don't think so. Brubaker could weave in and out of the holes that Smith left so masterfully that we could get an outstanding story in the process. On paper, a lot of superhero returns seem lame, but in execution, they can often be some of the most powerful stories in comics. E.g. I LOVE Green Lantern Rebirth!!! At the same time, the retun of Colossus seemed a little cheap, even though I love Astonishing X-Men and Wheadon. As with almost everything in comics, it's all about the writing.
| fox_limbo wrote: | | If there is a writer that can pull it off again again, it would be Ed Brubaker. |
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fox_limbo
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 01 Aug 2004
Posts: 335
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, Forrest, now see. Milla and Karen never frolicked in vigilantism, so for me in that regard, they are not in the same classification as Natasha and Elektra. That said, I understand exactly what you're saying. Karen transcended herself, during and after "Born Again" (which makes "Born Again" transcendant in it's own right, along with a dash of biting social commentary to go with the deep investigation of "what makes a hero a hero". It's been said numerous times, but "Born Again" is classic, hands down), doing, as you said, all the socially advantagious things that she participated in. And, yeah, I can definately agree with your statement of Karen being a "hero". Just as I can agree with Christopher Reeve's transcendant (I know I'm over-using this word, but I do not use it lightly) actions in the study of spinal cell research and his tireless work to conquer paralysis. He was a "superman" in a lot of people's eyes, even with the irony of his weak physicality after his accident. Same thing. So, yeah, I certainly agree with you on the idea of Karen Page being a hero.
But she was never a vigilante (not in the Black Widow / Elektra sense, at least).
The funeral scene and Mack's portrayal in the opening stanza of "Parts of a Hole" certainly were BEGINNING to dig into the post-mortem of Karen's death. I'm repeating myself, here, but I feel as important as Karen Page was to the entire Daredevil mythology, the meloncholy atmosphere after her death should have been better considered. Those few moments were only token episodes of what could have been handled bigger and with more care to properly signify (and celebrate) Karen's existance in Matt's life. But I digress. |
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