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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains? |
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I have a question, are Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains? On the surface one can argue that Owl, Jester and Mr. Fear are just the poor man's versions of Penguin, Joker and Scarecrow, but lets go deeper then that. The Batman villain Deadshot an assassin who can't miss was introduced 2 and half decades before Bullseye. Elektra plays the same girlfriend/anti hero role that Catwoman plays in the Batman universe.
You can also strech things things a bit and say that Mr. Hyde and Typhoid Mary borrow therir duality theme from Two-Face or that Gladiator is similar to Maxie Zeus, both are nuts who think they live in ancient times. Anyway I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but do you thing think DD's villains are too similar to Batman's villains? Why or why not? If they are too similar is there anyway to change them to make them diffrerent from batman's villains? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Just some food for thought:
What makes Bullseye what he is is not only his ability to "never miss". Any DD fan can tell that. |
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | Just some food for thought:
What makes Bullseye what he is is not only his ability to "never miss". Any DD fan can tell that. |
That's true, but on a superficial level you can say Deadshot and Bullseye are similiar.
Last edited by The Overlord on Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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No.
...As a huge DD and Batman fan, I just don't understand the recurring "DD is Marvel's Batman" discussions. I think it all came from the fact that Miller wrote for DD and Batman in roughly the same time period, when he was largely considered a comic god. (Before All Star Batman and Robin, of course!  ) They are VERY different characters and Punisher has at least as much in common with Batman as DD does.
That being said, the same goes for DD villains versus Batman villains. Bullseye, Kingpin, Elektra, Typhoid Mary, etc. ...to consider them emulations of Batman villains is a huge stretch, equivalent to considering Punisher, Wolverine, Spider-man, etc. villains as being too similair to Batman villains.
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villai |
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...Is Deadshot considered a "Batman villain?" When was the last time he appeared in a Batman title? I'd consider him more of a general DC villain.
| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | Elektra plays the same girlfriend/anti hero role that Catwoman plays in the Batman universe. |
The relationship between Spider-man and Black Cat is a much more appropriate comparison with Batman and Catwoman. (Both "cat" burglers, the secret identity irony, etc.)
| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | You can also strech things things a bit and say that Mr. Hyde and Typhoid Mary borrow therir duality theme from Two-Face or that Gladiator is similar to Maxie Zeus, both are nuts who think they live in ancient times. |
...That's a stretch. Multiple personalities is just about the most over used concept in action, drama, etc. in all forms of entertainment media.
I see your points and they're interesting. If I were to add to the discussion of pointing out commonalities (rather than arguing against them), I'd suggest that Marvel and DC villains are too similar, in general. Not to get into a Marvel vs. DC, but in almost all cases, the DC version (Deadshot, Catwoman, Scarecrow, etc.) came first.
Interesting side note: If you ever get a chance to read the first appearence of the Golden Age Flash (Jay Garrick), notice how strikingly similar this comic is to Amazing Fantasy #15. In fact, the more I read old Gardner Fox comics (Flash and other DC characters), the more I respect Fox at the expense of my respect for Stan Lee. I'm starting to view Stan Lee as what many claim Shakespeare to be, someone who took other creators' good ideas and revamped them. Still, I love Stan Lee but he may be giving way to Gardner Fox and Will Eisner for the spot of all time comic god.
In summary, no I don't think DD villains are too similar to Batman villains.
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villai |
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| Forrest wrote: | ...Is Deadshot considered a "Batman villain?" When was the last time he appeared in a Batman title? I'd consider him more of a general DC villain.
| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | Elektra plays the same girlfriend/anti hero role that Catwoman plays in the Batman universe. |
The relationship between Spider-man and Black Cat is a much more appropriate comparison with Batman and Catwoman. (Both "cat" burglers, the secret identity irony, etc.)
| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | You can also strech things things a bit and say that Mr. Hyde and Typhoid Mary borrow therir duality theme from Two-Face or that Gladiator is similar to Maxie Zeus, both are nuts who think they live in ancient times. |
...That's a stretch. Multiple personalities is just about the most over used concept in action, drama, etc. in all forms of entertainment media.
I see your points and they're interesting. If I were to add to the discussion of pointing out commonalities (rather than arguing against them), I'd suggest that Marvel and DC villains are too similar, in general. Not to get into a Marvel vs. DC, but in almost all cases, the DC version (Deadshot, Catwoman, Scarecrow, etc.) came first.
Interesting side note: If you ever get a chance to read the first appearence of the Golden Age Flash (Jay Garrick), notice how strikingly similar this comic is to Amazing Fantasy #15. In fact, the more I read old Gardner Fox comics (Flash and other DC characters), the more I respect Fox at the expense of my respect for Stan Lee. I'm starting to view Stan Lee as what many claim Shakespeare to be, someone who took other creators' good ideas and revamped them. Still, I love Stan Lee but he may be giving way to Gardner Fox and Will Eisner for the spot of all time comic god.
In summary, no I don't think DD villains are too similar to Batman villains. |
Interesting counter points, I posted this quested on another board and got some interesting counter points there as well:
http://www.comicboards.com/daredevil/view.php?rpl=060911030023
Posted by Omar Karindu on Monday, September 11 2006 at 03:00:23 GMT
in reply to Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains?, posted by The Overlord on Sunday, September 10 2006 at 19:27:41 GMT
> I have a question, are Are Daredevill's villains too similar to Batman's villains? On the surface one can argue that Owl, Jester and Mr. Fear are just the poor man's versions of Penguin, Joker and Scarecrow, but lets go deeper then that.
The Owl, originally, is much more of a poor-man's Vulture than a poor man's Penguin. He's a flying villain who tries to beat people up, not a bird-themed posh.
The Scarecrow is an interesting case, too. He made two appearances in 1942-3, and then never appeared again until 1969. On top of that, he never used any fear gas in his original appearances. In the first Scarecrow story, he's simply a university professor who wears a costume while running a protection racket, and uses litrtle more than a gun to scare people into doing what he demands. In his second appearance, he doesn't use fear at all, instead committing crimes based on an old book of nursery rhymes.
The Scarecrow's fear gases, and his status as a regularly appearing villain, both postdate the introduction of Mr. Fear in 1965 by about 4 years. Prior to that, he was a relatively obscure 1940s character who hadn't been seen anywhere for about 25 years. Mr. Fear pretty much couldn't have been based on him as history stands.
> The Batman villain Deadshot an assassin who can't miss was introduced 2 and half decades before Bullseye.
As a rich guy in tux and tails pretending to be a superhero, whose only talent was circus-style trick shooting with revolvers. His reinvention as an assassin and a madman took place in 1976, at almost the exact same time Bullseye was introduced.
> Elektra plays the same girlfriend/anti hero role that Catwoman plays in the Batman universe.
With the exception that Elektra kills, and Catwoman was traditionally portrayed as a simple thief on the edge of reforming.
> You can also strech things things a bit and say that Mr. Hyde and Typhoid Mary borrow therir duality theme from Two-Face or that Gladiator is similar to Maxie Zeus, both are nuts who think they live in ancient times. Anyway I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but do you thing think DD's villains are too similar to Batman's villains? Why or why not? If they are too similar is there anyway to change them to make them diffrerent from batman's villains?
There are parallels to be drawn, for sure, but I think a lot of them creep in much later than the original appearances of the characters. The Owl, for example, really did eventually become a cheap Penguin knockoff, complete with silly bird-themed vehicles and devices, but that was in late-1970s issues of Daredevil and Marvel Team-Up. Originally, he flew around punching people.
The Jester was probably meant to be a Joker knock-off, but I think the fact that he's always focused more on media hoaxes than on the Joker's theme crimes or mass murders distinguishes him. It also helps that the Jester is usually protrayed as sane.
As to the duality theme...well, really, that's older than comics by far. The very first page of Two-Face's very first story, for instance, actually shows him reading Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
- Omar Karindu
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Good points!
My justification on the "DC did it first" comments is largely based on first appearences, which may not accurately depict the first appearences of the characters we now see. E.g. the deadshot example. Taking this into consideration, it is striking the see the similarity in time between the first Scarecrow w/ fear gas vs. first Mr. Fear, first Deadshot as an asassian vs. first Bullseye, etc.
Still, I stand by my statement that Elektra and Catwoman are extremely different and Catwoman vs. Black Cat is a much more realistic comparison.
...When Deadshot went asassian in 1976, was that in a Batman setting, or was it in Green Arrow, etc?
Still, the ultimate DD villain is Kingpin and I there definitely is not a Batman equivalent. Lex Luthor is the closest DC equivalent to Fisk, but to describe the two as similar would be a little silly.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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DD's villians are not "too similar" to Batman villians. Why? Because they're not at all similar. To suggest that the Joker and the Jester are related at all is just ridiculous. Typhoid and Two Face? What?
So. No. Not at all.
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | DD's villians are not "too similar" to Batman villians. Why? Because they're not at all similar. To suggest that the Joker and the Jester are related at all is just ridiculous. Typhoid and Two Face? What?
So. No. Not at all. |
Keep in mind I'm playing devil's advocate here. However joker and jester are pretty similar in my opinion, they are both fun is dangerous villains who use similar gimmick weapons in their crimes, even their names sound similar. Now the big difference is Joker is far more intelligent, more insane and more scarey than Jester and Jester seems to have skill at media manipulation that Joker doesn't have.
Now I admitted the comparsions between Typhoid Mary or Mr. Hyde with Two-Face was a reach, but again, I'm playing devil's advocate here. If you really want to go on a limb and go for a real reach, you could say Typhoid Mary borrows elements from Two-Face (duality and the half face look) and Poison Ivy (the pheromone type powers and the hating men thing0 but again that would be a real reach. |
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | Good points!
My justification on the "DC did it first" comments is largely based on first appearences, which may not accurately depict the first appearences of the characters we now see. E.g. the deadshot example. Taking this into consideration, it is striking the see the similarity in time between the first Scarecrow w/ fear gas vs. first Mr. Fear, first Deadshot as an asassian vs. first Bullseye, etc.
Still, I stand by my statement that Elektra and Catwoman are extremely different and Catwoman vs. Black Cat is a much more realistic comparison.
...When Deadshot went asassian in 1976, was that in a Batman setting, or was it in Green Arrow, etc?
Still, the ultimate DD villain is Kingpin and I there definitely is not a Batman equivalent. Lex Luthor is the closest DC equivalent to Fisk, but to describe the two as similar would be a little silly. |
Still Kingpin was created as a Spider-Man villain, he only became a DD villain later, so its hard to use as example as an orginal villain in DD's rogues gallery. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I think, when you really think about it Robin is a lot like Robbie (from the Daily Bugle newsroom) because their names sort of sound the same. So, that's one similarity there.
But, it's not just about Daredevil and Batman. Think about Superman and Spider-man. They both have "man" in their names. Plus, they both have secret identities (well, they both used to) and...they're both superheroes. It's like it's the same character.
Finally, has anyone else noticed that both Wonder Woman and Storm are women? It's like they're the same character.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | Actually, I think, when you really think about it Robin is a lot like Robbie (from the Daily Bugle newsroom) because their names sort of sound the same. So, that's one similarity there.
But, it's not just about Daredevil and Batman. Think about Superman and Spider-man. They both have "man" in their names. Plus, they both have secret identities (well, they both used to) and...they're both superheroes. It's like it's the same character.
Finally, has anyone else noticed that both Wonder Woman and Storm are women? It's like they're the same character. |
Now your just being silly on purpose and that condescending attitude is very unbecomming. You have to admit that certain characters: Joker and Jester or Mr. freeze and Captain Cold can be consider similar, at least on a superfical level. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | james castle wrote: | Actually, I think, when you really think about it Robin is a lot like Robbie (from the Daily Bugle newsroom) because their names sort of sound the same. So, that's one similarity there.
But, it's not just about Daredevil and Batman. Think about Superman and Spider-man. They both have "man" in their names. Plus, they both have secret identities (well, they both used to) and...they're both superheroes. It's like it's the same character.
Finally, has anyone else noticed that both Wonder Woman and Storm are women? It's like they're the same character. |
Now your just being silly on purpose and that condescending attitude is very unbecomming. You have to admit that certain characters: Joker and Jester or Mr. freeze and Captain Cold can be consider similar, at least on a superfical level. |
No I'm not, no it isn't, no I don't and no they can't.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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The Overlord
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Joined: 22 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | The Master Meglomaniac wrote: | | james castle wrote: | Actually, I think, when you really think about it Robin is a lot like Robbie (from the Daily Bugle newsroom) because their names sort of sound the same. So, that's one similarity there.
But, it's not just about Daredevil and Batman. Think about Superman and Spider-man. They both have "man" in their names. Plus, they both have secret identities (well, they both used to) and...they're both superheroes. It's like it's the same character.
Finally, has anyone else noticed that both Wonder Woman and Storm are women? It's like they're the same character. |
Now your just being silly on purpose and that condescending attitude is very unbecomming. You have to admit that certain characters: Joker and Jester or Mr. freeze and Captain Cold can be consider similar, at least on a superfical level. |
No I'm not, no it isn't, no I don't and no they can't. |
Alright, whatever, but I think a lot of people would think those characters are similar on superfiical level. I have heard Jester being called a poor man's Joker all over the internet. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Batman villains are so numerous and varied that one could find vague similarities between almost any comic villain and a Batman villain.
However, your points are interesting, Master.
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