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johnnym
Flying Blind
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 47
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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 Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | I'll now make a provocative question:
If DD kills a psychopath who has just stated his intention to kill him, and then his wife, and then all of his friends he is "usurping the very legal system he's sworn to uphold and believe in".
...but if he severs the tendons of upper and lower limbs of a criminal (the Owl, DD #500, when no evil influence could've been involved in any way), paralyzing him forever, it's all okay?
I mean, the legal system he has sworn to uphold and believe in allows him to do that? |
The Owl is still alive though. Still alive to face trial, receive punishment, face imprisonment. No, the law may not look too kindly upon DD's treatment of the Owl (Of course, then, you're getting into how vigilantes are able to operate in the boroughs of Marvel NYC and how much latitude they have.)
But with Bullseye, who is a far more heinous criminal than the Owl could ever be, DD took it upon himself to be judge, jury, and executioner. He is his own law within Hell's Kitchen. All part of his having to forsake his old life to lead the Hand.
Yes, this death may lack a certain emotional punch, but in terms of damning Matt, it's pretty dramatic. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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(apart from the fact that the Owl won't be having a trial since he hasn't been captured by the police)
But say, whenever a vigilante beats a baddie to an inch of his life, or maims him, or even just simply decides to punish him with a punch, isn't he setting as jury, judge and executioner as well? |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | I don't see why everyone, both in the story and in the real world, is so surprised at what happened. DD would've killed bullseye for what he had done anyway. Hand or no hand.
As far as I'm concerned, the snakeroot guys are being delusional if they think that what he has done is because of their influence. |
I know I've vehemently disagreed with a similar statement before, but in no way do I believe that Daredevil, without the influence of the Hand, would have killed Bullseye.
In 507 issues, he has killed one person. One single solitary person. (I don't consider Man Without Fear canon.) And that was the helicopter pilot in Born Again. And he couldn't stop that pilot before he could kill more bystanders without the bazooka.
In every other instance I can think of, he has chosen to incapacitate criminals through physical force, therefore ensuring the safety of bystanders, and allowing the judicial system to proceed.
Since he severely injured Bullseye already in Shadowland #1, I believe that if Daredevil were in his right mind he would have strung him up and turned him in to the authorities. Yes, Daredevil is very angry about the building Bullseye blew up. But Daredevil never killed Kingpin, and Kingpin probably presided over the murders of just as many people as Bullseye in his time. Daredevil never killed Nuke, who was destroying Hell's Kitchen during Born Again. In fact, he was going to take Nuke to the hospital.
I've always considered Daredevil among the most noble, moral and compassionate heroes in comics. I'm guessing that Diggle's run is simply an experimental detour in Daredevil's history, and I'm willing to stick around and see where it goes. I'm confident though that we're going to have to return to the Daredevil of old, or else much of this characters appeal is going to be gone. There is a reason why I don't read the Punisher after all. |
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Anybody else get the feeling that maybe Marvel's Shadowland video had a couple of little clues in it? Since the images are from Shadowland #1 and DD #508, there are some we haven't seen in context yet.
The one that really stands out to me is Matt's eyes turning a glowing red. Every time we've seen someone's eyes glow red like that, they've been under the influence of the Hand's mindset.
Hmmm.
Maybe Matt isn't really himself these days? Could it be that's why all this uncharacteristic stuff is going on with him? I'll be interested in seeing how long he stays this way. What's it going to take to knock his sense back into him?
Foggy to the rescue...
_________________
Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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AP
Flying Blind
Joined: 08 Jul 2010
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Darkdevil wrote: | I don't buy that logic. Yes, Bullseye deserves what is coming to him. But does that give Matt the right to deliver it? In one swift stroke, Matt has not only 'killed' Bullseye but also totally usurped the very legal system he's sworn to uphold and believed in.
Add the weight of their history, of their conflict plus Bullseye's recent actions that lead Matt to establish Shadowland to begin with and Matt's reactions seem almost a relief to him. As if he thinks he should done this long ago. That adds to the shock value.
But that's if you see that as a 'shock' moment. I don't see it as that. I see it as a progressive moment, a final piece of the puzzle. Yes, it might be somewhat rushed between White Tiger's ruse in #507 to this, but it shows that it worked. Matt 'killed' Bullseye of his own free will, not the Snakeroot. How damning is that? |
I agree. I think the reviewer immediately fails when he says "Let's forget for a second that Matt Murdock has a code of conduct as most superheroes do." Why? That's the whole point. He has turned away from his code of conduct. It doesn't matter that we all think Bullseye deserves what's coming to him. Despite everything Bullseye has done to him, DD didn’t think Bullseye deserved to die by his hand. DD has now taken the plunge and broken away from something fundamental to his character and, as darkdevil said, “totally usurped the very legal system he's sworn to uphold and believed in.”
Let’s face the facts. For better or worse, this is a big event being written for a character that does not currently have mass appeal. They hope to tell a good story, gain more fans, and please the old fans. Not an enviable position to be as a writer. This first issue is clearly written, for better or worse, with the casual reader in mind. Is it a simple issue? Yes, but it had to be to get the casual reader onboard. You can’t just throw them into the middle of all the machinations that have been going on and expect them to stick around. You have to bring them in when there is a definitive beginning so they know where they stand and ease them into DD’s world.
The idea of using Izo as the character to prove DD’s taking the dark path just wouldn’t work for what the event is trying to accomplish. Besides the fact that he probably has a larger role to play in all of this, the casual reader has no idea who he is. I agree, it would be more meaningful to sacrifice Izo but it wouldn’t mean much to the casual reader. But the casual reader knows who Bullseye is, that he killed Elektra (they might even know he also killed Karen Page) and that DD does not kill. Yes, this issue is rather simple, but it gets the point across. They now know that DD is in charge of The Hand, that he doesn't want anything to do with his old friends unless they swear allegiance to The Hand, and that he has killed his greatest enemy after years of sparing him. It’s not an awe inspiring issue for those of us that regularly read DD, but hopefully this issue will spark interest for the more casual fans and the pace will pick up after this issue. I can forgive the first issue being simple as long as all this set-up pays off.
I know this looks like I’m an apologist for the current DD creative team, but I definitely have my concerns. I’m honestly not crazy about them “killing” Bullseye or the idea of using this event to gain more readers. I’m very skeptical that this will bring mass appeal to DD and also be a good story, but I’m impressed by what Diggle and company have done so far so I’m willing to give them a chance. I’m certainly not ready to damn this issue based on such a faulty review. I’ll wait to see how it fits in with everything else before I make my decision. |
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Born Again
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Gosh, I haven't posted here in forever. Anyway, I think DD would've killed Bullseye even if he wasn't leading/under the influence of The Hand. Remember the last issue of Bendis' run? In the sequence where Matt's considering running out of court. Bullseye kills Milla and he kills Bullseye. Those 107 people all weren't as close to Matt as Milla, but I think the impact is roughly the same. |
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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| Posted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | (apart from the fact that the Owl won't be having a trial since he hasn't been captured by the police)
But say, whenever a vigilante beats a baddie to an inch of his life, or maims him, or even just simply decides to punish him with a punch, isn't he setting as jury, judge and executioner as well? |
I suppose this whole point revolves around the issue of "'Does Bullseye deserve to die for the crimes he's committed?" And that's for every crime, not just what he's done against Matt.
That's up for the courts and a jury to decide, not Matt Murdock. Yes, Matt may have beaten the daylights outta Bullseye before but he's always turned him over to the proper authorities.
Now though, he didn't. He took the law into his own hands and meted out punishment as he saw fit (without hesistation it appears based on the art)
If vigilantes start doing that, how long before they are cracked down on by the police? Like I mentioned before, cops in the Marvel NYC seem to give vigilantes some leeway (which seems to include how bloody and beaten their opponents are)
But this type of logic is faulty. If you go by this, then vigilantes will be hunted down for actually breaking the law. Plus, by this logic, Peter should break Norman's neck and be done with it. But he won't because Peter knows better. Does Matt anymore? |
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Dre
Flying Blind
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 74
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Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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With the internet, anyone can set up a camera and get in front of it. One of the first two dudes even says he's not a regular DD reader, so what huge value do I get from his opinion? None. Plus he does most of the talking while the other guy swills his Red Bull.
Comic Vine is not much better with Whiny Fangirl playing with her bracelets. "Whyyyyyyyyyyy did they have to put THOR in therrrrrre?"
I give comic reviews much of the same weight I give movie or book reviews. Until I see/read it myself, I don't form an opinion. I don't go jump on some critic's bandwagon. If more people would just read for pleasure, instead of trying to wrest the deep meaning of life out of comic books, they'd enjoy them a lot more. Escapism is what I read for. Not to find a reason to postulate on the internet.
Back to my thoughts on the issue? Simple. I don't care a lot for Billy Tan's art style in this issue. Lots of butt-kicking going on. Fine. Last page, we could figure out that it was coming by too many previews on the internet, but had I come at this cold...whoa! About time Matt put an end to this guy. Is he the same Matt Murdock we have known and loved? Maybe not right now. Doesn't mean that this isn't really a cool deviation in the title right now. I really want to read where it's going. I'm along for the ride.
_________________
Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
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Dre
Flying Blind
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| Darediva wrote: |
With the internet, anyone can set up a camera and get in front of it. One of the first two dudes even says he's not a regular DD reader, so what huge value do I get from his opinion? None. Plus he does most of the talking while the other guy swills his Red Bull. |
Not being a DD regular should have actually helped his enjoyment of this issue since it's far below the pedigree expected of the author and what DD is nornally accustomed to. Just jumping in as he did is all he needed to do for his critique to be as notable as anyone elses. Had he remained abreast of the title over the years, his review, much like IGN's, would have likely been far more harsh. Moreover, there was a total recap page that summed upped events to date, and even then the summation game the impression sveral issue inbetween 507 and Shadowland #1 had been missed. Even so, though, with the very little that happened in Shadowland coupled with numerous splacsh pages, this little gap information could have been filled in quite nicely. All in all, it was actually to Shadowland #1's benifit for people to not have been keeping up with DD over the years.
| Quote: | | Comic Vine is not much better with Whiny Fangirl playing with her bracelets. "Whyyyyyyyyyyy did they have to put THOR in therrrrrre?" |
She's not as much of a comic fan as she is eye candy to attract more viewers, I imagine. After watching those videos for a while it become glaringly obvious.
| Quote: | | I give comic reviews much of the same weight I give movie or book reviews. Until I see/read it myself, I don't form an opinion. I don't go jump on some critic's bandwagon. If more people would just read for pleasure, instead of trying to wrest the deep meaning of life out of comic books, they'd enjoy them a lot more. Escapism is what I read for. Not to find a reason to postulate on the internet. |
Hehe Then it's too bad DD's been spoiling so many fans for so many years with it's accoladed depth and gravitas. It appears Shadowland looks to end this for the character by way of decompressed, expensive, aethestically unpleasing, underwhelming story telling. Too bad, too. Diggle first arc wasn't bad at all. Admittently, Roberto de la Tore's artistry is mostly to thank for that.
| Quote: | | Back to my thoughts on the issue? Simple. I don't care a lot for Billy Tan's art style in this issue. Lots of butt-kicking going on. Fine. Last page, we could figure out that it was coming by too many previews on the internet, but had I come at this cold...whoa! About time Matt put an end to this guy. Is he the same Matt Murdock we have known and loved? Maybe not right now. Doesn't mean that this isn't really a cool deviation in the title right now. I really want to read where it's going. I'm along for the ride. |
As many have said before me, this event is an excellent idea with, so far, poor execution. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, or anyone else for that matter, even your's, I'm sure, that the tone set with Bullseye's death could have been done with far more original and exciting means. To have Bullseye and DD fight YET AGAIN was, IMO, the laziest way to achieve the tone Diggle was seeking. Oh, and having these two fight again wasn't enough, but they had to homeage Miller's Elektra death scene! They really couldn't have tried to do something of their own accord? Seriously? Perhaps attempting something original and iconic themselves? My goodness. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| I can't see in what way the current storyline would be "below what regular DD readers are accustomed to" as you're repeating over and over. |
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Dre
Flying Blind
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | I can't see in what way the current storyline would be "below what regular DD readers are accustomed to" as you're repeating over and over. |
Don't worry about it. It's all opinion, after all, and in my opinion, Shadowland #1 is worst DD related anything I've experienced since that damnable 2003 movie.
On an relatively unrelated note, upon seeing an interesting tweet by Mr. Mithra that said, "Just imagine SHADOWLAND written by Warren Ellis. It'd be crazier", I instantly thought to myself, " No, it'd be better". Hehehehe |
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The Mast
Flying Blind
Joined: 23 Apr 2010
Posts: 62
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:46 am Post subject: |
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They didn't "pay homage" to Elektra's death.
Matt killed Bullseye that way because he killed HER that way. It wasn't meant as a writer circle-jerk. It was to show everyone that the one event was still a driving force behind everything Matt feels toward Bullseye, and that he's been brewing for a long time. It wasn't noticeable ALL the time because, as I said, he was probably suffering subconsciously.
Everyone saying that this feels rushed, I say again, I don't get it. If this wasn't intended as a big pay-off to ALL Matt has gone through, ever, then Diggle got lucky. Because it absolutely works from that perspective. If not, then you already know he's being manipulated by The Hand.
I just don't see how it feels rushed or something they've dived into. Lots of things happening quickly does not mean it's rushed. The work was not shoddy, the execution wasn't dire and everything that happened had multiple reasons for happening.
As for claiming Shadowland #1 is the worst Daredevil related ANYTHING besides the movie, how ridiculous. If you wanna get technical, go and read a bulk of the stuff written before Miller got his hands on the character.
I'd rather watch Affleck Vs Farrell than ever see Daredevil fight Man-Bull ever again. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Dre wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | I can't see in what way the current storyline would be "below what regular DD readers are accustomed to" as you're repeating over and over. |
Don't worry about it. It's all opinion, after all, and in my opinion, Shadowland #1 is worst DD related anything I've experienced since that damnable 2003 movie.
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Thanks for clarifying that it is your opinion. Now it suddenly makes much more sense. |
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