|
Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
|
The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
|
 Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| harryhausen wrote: | | I think you make some good points, jumonji, about the nature of the book. I’m not really calling for it to be more of a ‘superhero book’ and am not daunted by the lack of costume time. Perhaps you’re addressing a broader tone - I’ll admit that I don’t read many reviews of titles I collect (excluding our man, Dave Wallace – good as always!) and it could be that these complaints arise there and on other message boards. |
Yeah, this was more of a general response to the kinds of reactions you see out there. For many, this is not a problem at all, but you see a lot of "not enough costume" reactions. The vast majority of reviews have been positive, however.
| harryhausen wrote: | | I would offer that we haven’t seen Matt do much lawyering, either. Foggy and Becky do all the heavy lifting around there, of course, but Matt hasn’t even done his usual quota of legal work, in my eyes. My point, I think, is that he hasn’t done much of anything, personally. He has become a central figure around whom the other characters revolve. His villains are the ones doing things. So Matt stands around stewing and lamenting all that has happened to him. |
Very well put, and I agree to a large extent. That's why I think it's surprising to hear people say "too much legal stuff" (yeah, I've seen that one too). It's almost as if it's automatically "Matt Murdock, attorney at law" by default whenever he's wearing a business suit or really doing anything out of costume. How many panels of Matt in an actual court room have we really seen in Brubaker's run? Not many. And I totally get the criticism about his not being proactive enough, which I think is a valid complaint.
| harryhausen wrote: | | I also think that spending more than half the narrative time away from the costumed hero part of Matt, as a character, is not a good idea, on the whole. It is the most interesting part of his life. I know lots of lawyers – even those who crusade for social justice (bring back the storefront office!) – but they’re not nearly as interesting as a super-intense blind vigilante in a devil suit. |
What I think is interesting about this part of the character, and superheroes in general, is really the inevitable internal conflict that someone like that must be struggling with. Matt is Daredevil, Daredevil is Matt. One thing I heard in a podcast review of DD #114 the other day that struck a cord with me was that DD/Matt is different from most superheroes in that both parts of the character share the same basic goal, and that an unusual amount of focus on the civilian aspect of his life makes more sense in Daredevil than in many other superhero books. While there's that inevitable dichotomy of someone who both believes in the justice system and chooses to act outside of it, there's also a lot of what he's doing that makes a weird kind of sense.
Anyway, what I was getting to is that I just find the character interesting - period. I don't think I would be able to say that he's more interesting in a particular guise since the character remains the same person underneath it all and also always carries around that inner conflict. There is, of course, something to be said for action scenes, and I do think they are an integral part of a superhero book, but if it weren't for the insight into the characters' minds during fight scenes, I'd flip through them and just skip ahead to the part where they tell you who beat whom. There, I said it. 
Oh, and glad to see you haven't left us yet! 
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| harryhausen wrote: | | Now, I don’t know if you’ve been reading Morrison’s Batman (and I know I’m opening a whole can of worms here), but I think that – hallucinatory nature aside – he’s done a really compelling job of crafting a portrait of a truly (very likely unhealthily) proactive character with an unstoppable will. Almost an anti-Daredevil, these days. If you mess with Bats, he will f%*@ you up, brother! I used to get that same feeling about DD, but no longer. Maybe that’s what I miss most? |
I've been reading - and disliking - Morrison's Batman since he jumped on the book. But in the interest of full disclosure, I've disliked virtually everything Morrison has ever done, because everything I've read from him is so... 'Morrison'. It's like in every panel of every book he's ever written, you can't remove the author from the text and actually get immersed in the book, because he's trying to cram one ludicrous notion or another down your throat.
At least with Brubaker, and to be fair, most decent writers, I can suspend disbelief for a second and feel like I'm being told a story, rather than a collection of out-there gimmicky concepts that often don't even string together into a quantifiable narrative.
That said, I agree with your initial complaints. Daredevil is a little more 'passive' of late. It's not since the 'Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen' story that he really jumped out and scared the ever-living crap out of the criminal underworld. But maybe that impression comes from the fact that he basically just got outclassed on every level by Mr. Fear? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: |
|
|
That's probably a reason, but it wasn't only that Cranston outclassed him, it was that in his struggle against him - which practically lasted ten issues, eleven if you count the aftermath in #106 - Daredevil/Matt was completely unable of accomplishing anything, of being relevant, of driving a plot that already had an ending written and that was practically dumped on him as a character.
The same happened in the previous storyarc with Vanessa, and is, I'm afraid, happening now with the Hand and Lady Bullseye's machinations. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Acerbus wrote: |
I've been reading - and disliking - Morrison's Batman since he jumped on the book. But in the interest of full disclosure, I've disliked virtually everything Morrison has ever done, because everything I've read from him is so... 'Morrison'. It's like in every panel of every book he's ever written, you can't remove the author from the text and actually get immersed in the book, because he's trying to cram one ludicrous notion or another down your throat.
|
Ludicris? What's ludicris about the notion that our world is merely the wallpaper on the "wall" of actual reality? NOTHING! Nothing at all.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Francesco wrote: | That's probably a reason, but it wasn't only that Cranston outclassed him, it was that in his struggle against him - which practically lasted ten issues, eleven if you count the aftermath in #106 - Daredevil/Matt was completely unable of accomplishing anything, of being relevant, of driving a plot that already had an ending written and that was practically dumped on him as a character.
The same happened in the previous storyarc with Vanessa, and is, I'm afraid, happening now with the Hand and Lady Bullseye's machinations. |
That was my big problem with the Mr. Fear plot. Mr. Fear's "plan" was to poison Milla. Which he did. Pretty easily. There was zero DD could have done to stop it. It just sort of happened.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah. Though I should correct myself. The larger Mr Fear storyarc consists in eleven issues, twelve if we count #106, in which Daredevil/Matt fails to be an active protagonist who drives the plot, and then comes out as a complete loser.
Twelve issues. It's a year of publication, and I wouldn't underestimate that (more if we count the annual intermission to the main story). I honestly cannot judge any DD fan who after finishing issue #106 thought to himself, in frustration "Damn. what the heck have I been reading a year?" and decided to drop the book. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Francesco wrote: | | Yeah. Though I should correct myself. The larger Mr Fear storyarc consists in eleven issues, twelve if we count #106, in which Daredevil/Matt fails to be an active protagonist who drives the plot, and then comes out as a complete loser. |
I sort of have a problem with this way of looking at it. I can see where people fault Bru for not portraying the character as proactive enough. It's not a huge deal for me, but it's definitely a valid complaint.
But my problems with what Francesco is saying here only indirectly involves Brubaker as a writer and the particulars of the story. What I would ask is: Are you a "loser" simply for losing? You might possibly be considered a loser for not even trying, but are you a loser for not being in complete control of things that are justifiably beyond your reach? (Supersenses or not, if Milla goes to the shrink and meets a shady character in a waiting room, how the heck is Matt supposed to know about that? And how would he even stop it without following her around everywhere she goes?)
I honestly don't understand how the simple fact that Larry didn't have the cure for Milla's disease made Matt a loser. Would having Larry hand over the antidote after the fight make him less of a loser? He would have been at Larry Cranston's mercy either way. That is, it was not for lack of trying that the outcome was what it was.
Matt got played. I can see why people don't like that in their stories. However, I cannot see how that automatically reflects badly on the character. Being everywhere at once or knowing about things before they happen is not something that's in Daredevil's repertoire.
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I know! That's why I connected the two aspects with an "and". The former is much, much more important to me than the latter aspect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 5:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jumonji wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | | Yeah. Though I should correct myself. The larger Mr Fear storyarc consists in eleven issues, twelve if we count #106, in which Daredevil/Matt fails to be an active protagonist who drives the plot, and then comes out as a complete loser. |
I sort of have a problem with this way of looking at it. I can see where people fault Bru for not portraying the character as proactive enough. It's not a huge deal for me, but it's definitely a valid complaint.
But my problems with what Francesco is saying here only indirectly involves Brubaker as a writer and the particulars of the story. What I would ask is: Are you a "loser" simply for losing? You might possibly be considered a loser for not even trying, but are you a loser for not being in complete control of things that are justifiably beyond your reach? (Supersenses or not, if Milla goes to the shrink and meets a shady character in a waiting room, how the heck is Matt supposed to know about that? And how would he even stop it without following her around everywhere she goes?)
I honestly don't understand how the simple fact that Larry didn't have the cure for Milla's disease made Matt a loser. Would having Larry hand over the antidote after the fight make him less of a loser? He would have been at Larry Cranston's mercy either way. That is, it was not for lack of trying that the outcome was what it was.
Matt got played. I can see why people don't like that in their stories. However, I cannot see how that automatically reflects badly on the character. Being everywhere at once or knowing about things before they happen is not something that's in Daredevil's repertoire. |
I just don't get what you mean by "reflects badly on the character". Like...on Daredevil? The imaginary character? Daredevil is not a loser or a winner or anything really. Mostly because he doesn't exist.
In this story he was a loser. Because he lost. Through no fault of his own. That's the problem. You seem to be suggesting that Milla getting poisoned is "realistic" or something. You say "Matt can't be everywhere at once. He can't know everything". Well, first off, if the writer wants him to...he can. Second, he doesn't have to know everything. He just has to know the thing that would lead to a good story. You're saying something like "it makes sense that Matt didn't know". But it doesn't "make sense". Bru is not reporting on the real goings on of Matt's "life". He's writing a story. And when one writes a story (if that person wants to make it a good story) then they don't just write random things.
You see, it's not about Matt being too put upon or being a loser. It's about Bru's inability (in the DD comics I've read anyway) to actually plot a story that's worth reading. At the risk of oversimplifying, one thing that a story should have is "something to hope for" or "something to fear" (ohhh, get it?). The enjoyment one gets while reading a story comes not from just gliding one's eyes over the page but in going "oh, I hope Luke is able to blow up the Deathstar" or "I sure hope the government people don't catch ET". The problem with recent DD arcs is that crap is just happening. Take Cruel and Unusual. What did anyone hope for? I guess you hoped that that dude didn't get executed but beyond that there was nothing. DD never had a plan. No one had a plan. Things just rolled along. Even if you did hope for something it would have been useless because things just wrapped up in a random fashion anyway. Was anyone really hoping that the FBI had set the guy up and that they were protecting Slaughter because he...I don't know..owned some boats (I can barely recall what the resolution was it was so random)? And that's all to do with the plotting of the comic.
The weird thing is that I feel like you're excusing Bru (who actually exists) on the grounds that DD is kinda a real person. Which he isn't. I just don't get why people don't expect more.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Look, JC. We both know that Daredevil is a fictional character. And yet, we come to this site to discuss his trials and tribulations because they pull us in. People on this site obviously derive some kind of enjoyment or, in some cases, even inspiration from reading stories about this character. We suspend disbelief. It doesn't make us delusional.
You point out that I'm looking for some kind of realism in stories. And that's certainly true. I enjoy reading about things that I can imagine actually happen in an imagined, slightly twisted, other reality. That doesn't mean I can't tell fact from fiction. It also doesn't mean that I'm wrong to enjoy what I enjoy.
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jumonji wrote: | Look, JC. We both know that Daredevil is a fictional character. And yet, we come to this site to discuss his trials and tribulations because they pull us in. People on this site obviously derive some kind of enjoyment or, in some cases, even inspiration from reading stories about this character. We suspend disbelief. It doesn't make us delusional.
You point out that I'm looking for some kind of realism in stories. And that's certainly true. I enjoy reading about things that I can imagine actually happen in an imagined, slightly twisted, other reality. That doesn't mean I can't tell fact from fiction. It also doesn't mean that I'm wrong to enjoy what I enjoy. |
Yeah (this time) I'm not trying to start a fight. You enjoy Bru, I don't. I think we've settled that issue. And no, I don't think you actually think DD is a real person or are delusional in any way.
Maybe I'm just commenting on our different approach to critique. I guess I just have a harder time seperating the stories from the people telling them. It's not that I enjoy the character's trials and tribulations per se. I think I enjoy the character's trials and tribulations as expressed through stories told by various authors. At base, since I spend time and money on these things I'd like to think that the person on the other end, the person creating them is spending some time and thought as well.
This is way off point but one DD related scene that always pissed me off to no end was the shot in Guardian Devil where the Kingpin is reading about Karen Pages death in the paper and he says something like "well played my friend". In that scene Kingpin is shown appreciating the work of Mysterio. BUT, the problem is that Mysterio didn't plan Karen's death. She just happens to be at the wrong place at the wrong time and Bullseye just happens to kill her. Big deal right? Well, no, because what we're really seeing in the scene with the Kingpin isn't him appreciating Mysterio's work, it's Kingpin mistakenly attributing something to Mysterio that Mysterio had nothing to do with. The problem, for me anyway, is that my brain immediately says "wait, why did Smith include a scene in which the Kingpin makes a mistake?". Because that's what he did. We didn't have to see that scene. Smith had to actively put it in. Why would he put it in? The answer to that is: Smith's a hack. And that pisses me off. I don't think Bru is a hack at all but I think his plotting is so sloppy as to be a wee bit insulting.
At the end of the day though, you and I just disagree about Bru. Actually, it's a bit my fault. A little while back I rearranged my comics and organized them by creators instead of by title. That way I no longer feel compelled to follow a series or a character but instead follow authors I like (if an artist I like is also involved then bully for me but I mainly follow writers). The only exception is DD since I truly believe that I will fall over dead if I stop collecting it.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim B.
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 124
Location: Woodstock Ontario
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is a good topic I have to say.
Harry I can see where you are coming from with your frustrations with the title. I have mostly not enjoyed vol. 2 DD much and was worried for awhile there that issue 380 was going to be kind of the last Daredevil I ever liked. I bought the comic out of habit (every month since 1985, it's hard to stop) up until issue 50 and just gave it up for awhile (Vision quest was the final straw for me) but I decided to give Bru's DD a try and have liked his run the best of any writer on vol. 2. Although the whole Mr. Fear story was not very good IMO anyways. But I do share the same frustrations with his stories that others have said like random things just happening all of the time and the fact that DD needs to be more proactive. I am also really tired of the constant thing that every writer that comes on to write the title wants to do his version of Born Again, meaning someone is out to destroy Matt's life. It is getting old, really old by now. Frank (and to a lesser extent Ann Nocenti) did it already and much better as well. The whole thing of "Someone's trying to get Matt and now he's mentally losing it" has been done to death as well. It's time to move onto a new kind of story for Matt's life. I would like to see him on top of his game again, and back out looking for crime. Fighting some random muggers doesn't count. Basically the guy needs to be in control again.
Also while I enjoy seeing Matt hanging with the Fog and running around Hell's Kitchen, I don't think it would hurt the comic to see him do something different sometimes. It keeps the stories fresh. One story I loved but I don't know if I have heard anyone on here ever comment about was Redemption. Just to see him in a new enviroment and using his skills as Matt AND Daredevil equally in the story was just amazing to me. That is how a good story with him should be. It seems to me that a lot of the fans of the book don't want to see him ever leave New York and do something different. I just don't understand that at all. I really liked when Bru took him to France and when Nocenti had him trekking around in upstate NY. Maybe I am one of the only ones who liked that I don't know.
Like I said I do on the whole like Bru's Daredevil and love Michael Lark's artwork too but I am hoping things will start to turn around sometime for him.
As for Morrison yes his stuff can be very "Morrison" Meaning it is kooky and strange. Read Batman the Black Glove, that was pretty out there but I liked it. Speaking of Morrison's Batman, has anyone ever read "Gothic" ? I have been buying lots of Batman on ebay lately to fill in my collection and was wondering if it is worth getting.
_________________
"This isn't hell, but you can see it from here." -The Crow |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
While I agree that I'd prefer Matt to become more proactive (i loved see him kicking Slaughter, the Feds and the Agency's asses in the previous story), I'm quite satisfied with Brubaker's work in DD (and I have already mentioned it: I suspect master Izo is here to accomplish something).
I also trust Brubaker because he's a fellow with solid, long-term plans: look back at what he's done in Captain America... even his one shots were part of a big, well-conceived plot, and there's a big story overarching all his Cap story-arches so far.
I mean, he even killed Steve Rogers and made Bucky, his faithful companion from WW2, his successor... and most anybody is convinced by that move.
Now I'm wondering... Maybe he's planning to kill Matt Murdock? and Matt's trusty companion at the firm recently returned from death, like Bucky... I wonder...Naaah!
...There's no way the Fogster would look good in red tights as the new DD! 
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
@JC: Thanks for a great and well thought out response. And, I actually do see where you're coming from as far as Bru is concerned, as I think I've mentioned previously. I can look at your criticism and understand the basis for it.
The reason it's taken me this long to respond is that I've actually done some thinking about this over the last couple of days (shocking, huh?) and I think that what most of Bru's stories to date have had in common is that Matt has faced situations that I guess could be described as fait accompli. They sort of start with Matt becoming of aware of something that has already happened or his being in situation B because of situation A, where situation A is something of which he has marginal control and/or awareness. The stories then focus on his working his way through the layers and backwards to the source. I think this is the main reason the character is not seen as driving the stories as much as being driven. (And I think everything I've mentioned here has been touched on in this thread and elsewhere, I'm just trying to structure my thoughts.)
I'm not sure this makes events any more random, per se, because the dots always connect at the end, but since the reader is usually obscured from seeing the larger picture (along with the main character), it may appear that way if it's not done right. For me personally, this has been done right. I never once had the reaction that something felt random or contrived until Cruel and Unusual, which I really feel was lacking in the underlying plot department. This was, ironically, made even more apparent by the fact that it was deliberately laid out as a mystery. But I don't mind this way of writing in general, I just wished that final reveal had been something much juicier. And generally I think Bru is pretty good at laying out little hints for the reader to piece together.
I think the Lady Bullseye arc is breaking the earlier pattern a little bit. There's still plenty of "things happening behind the scenes that Matt doesn't know about and now has to react to" going on, but in this story, Matt enters in the middle of the plotting and scheming rather than after it's already been completed. I don't know if anyone else has thought about that.
Either way, I guess what I've realized regarding why I enjoy Bru's writing is that while the plot itself is not exactly secondary to me, I sort of enjoy the being along for the ride feeling. I like reading about how the characters relate to each other and the events around them and what it tells us about them. Maybe that's why I don't mind the "reactive" Daredevil as much as some people have, even though all of the work on character development could, of course, be done within the context of other types of plots. But, yeah, I'd like to see something a little more proactive and less dumping on Matt.
_________________
The Other Murdock Papers |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
