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Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

Forget even Joker what makes Jester unique or more interesting then say Toyman, Trickster, Prankster, etc.

Well, motivation, to say one.
Also, while it might be true that sometimes Joker is portrayed as being capable at hand to hand fighting, that was never meant to be his prerogative.
Jester, on the other hand, trained himself to peak condition with the purpose of being, among the other things, a good hand to hand fighter and acrobat.

Last edited by Francesco on Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

Gloria
Redemption

Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:28 am Post subject:

I must add, Jester can fence while reciting classic verse, whether from Shakespeare or Rostand, which is always more refined than Joker's own punchlines. Fencing implies more than mere skill at fight... it is a sport with its own rules and ceremonials: fencing your enemy is a step over just punching him. I mean, Jester is a cultured man, and I believe that his feeling of superiority comes from that belief. _________________ Gloria Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás "Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject:

Francesco wrote:

Quote:

Forget even Joker what makes Jester unique or more interesting then say Toyman, Trickster, Prankster, etc.

Well, motivation, to say one.
Also, while it might be true that sometimes Joker is portrayed as being capable at hand to hand fightings, that's was never meant to be his prerogative.
Jester, on the other hand, trained himself to peak condition with the purpose of being, among the other things, a good hand to hand fighter and acrobat.

Meh, Post crisis Prankster became a villain because his sit-com was cancelled and he tried to kill the executives who fired him. Is that really that diffrernt. Besides Jester's motive never made any sense to me, why didn't he acting lessons in the first place? Why is he a criminal? Frankly the Bruce Timm version of Toyman had a better motive.

Also Trickster was an acrobat before he became a criminal so how is Jester fighting skills different from Trickster's?

I understand why you and Gloria like Jester, everyone has there own C-list villains that like and I think that's a valid view point. But the question is, how do you mkae him appeal to the average comic bo0ok fan. What stories can you do with Jester that you can't do with every other "fun is dangerous" villains?

Gloria
Redemption

Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject:

The Overlord wrote:

... everyone has there own C-list villains that like and I think that's a valid view point. But the question is, how do you make him appeal to the average comic bo0ok fan. What stories can you do with Jester that you can't do with every other "fun is dangerous" villains?

I think the key in Jester's case, is that he is no mere clown... He's a full-fledged thespian, so to me some interesting key concepts to bring would be that he could "Play", "Pretend", "Act" and "Make-believe" (in his early apperances he got DD persecuted by making believe everyone he had "murdered" him)

... And whatever, make it swashbuckley! (Yaasss... ZORRO!)
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject:

So, he had a motivation similar to the first Prankster (still, "similar" with a big effort of imagination, in fact one was a theater actor who was considered incapable by everyone, the other a guy who got his TV show canceled) and fighting abilities like the Trickster (again, still quite different, Trickster was an acrobat before becoming a criminal, Jester took heavy training AND body building in response of his frustration). Big deal. It means that in the other aspects he's different from both of them.

Quote:

Besides Jester's motive never made any sense to me, why didn't he acting lessons in the first place?

His response to failure was not supposed to be that of any ordinary man.

Quote:

What stories can you do with Jester that you can't do with every other "fun is dangerous" villains?

(Apart from the fact that these other "fun is dangerous" villains you mentioned are all DC villains, except Arcade, making the dilemma easier to a marvel writer) A good writer, I think, and I pointed it out in other topics as well, has the ability to underline in a character all those "elements" that make him stand out.
Jester, as Gloria also pointed out, doesn't lack these elements.

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject:

Gloria wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

You know I'm going to be fair here and say I don't the character is totally hopeless, but I think he does need a major rework.

First his costume sucks, he needs a better one. Red and black would be a colour be a better scheme. Also his mask sucks, give him a creepy smiling theater mask.

I think he would be better if he had a legit reason for failing as an actor. "I forgot to take acting lessons" is kinda lame.
Maybe he was screwed over by a greedy agent, a jealous actor or an over bearing director and tries to get revenge on this person with DD having to protect the jerk.

Or since he was actor, give a psychotic obsession with movies. He thinks he is a character in a movie or thinks characters from movies talk to him directly.

I just he needs a little more work to make him more unique.

Gloria
Redemption

Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:24 am Post subject:

The Overlord wrote:

First his costume sucks, he needs a better one. Red and black would be a colour be a better scheme. Also his mask sucks, give him a creepy smiling theater mask.

I definitely agree at this. He needs a cool re-design. However a black/red costume would make him a candidate to be dissed as a "Harley Quinn rip-off ". I think that the old John Buscema rerdesign (way back when the Jester made a deep impact in my imagination) was way better than the original costume. I'm not so happy with the Winslade Punch-type redesign in the "Playing to the camera" story, but it was a worthy atempt nonetheless.

Maybe a new design should be worked upon Commedia dell'Arte characters (also here and here) , or follow/polish Winslade's Punch idea, or make him the Cyrano/Scaramouche type... There's quite an array of options.

The Overlord wrote:

I think he would be better if he had a legit reason for failing as an actor. "I forgot to take acting lessons" is kinda lame.

Maybe he was screwed over by a greedy agent, a jealous actor or an over bearing director and tries to get revenge on this person with DD having to protect the jerk.

Yes, I think that this scenario would give a more individual personality to Jester. I'm thinking on films like "All About Eve" or "Theatre of Blood", which deal with the bitchiness/competition that may occur around the limelights. The "That jerk stole the scene/role/character from me!" bit could be worked into an interesting story.

Incidentally, there was an Old DD story where a pompous ham actor came to NYC to play Cyrano: Jester kidnapped the actor in order to "understudy" him (the funny thing was that DD rather found himself symathising with Jester in this one Laughing

)

Back to topic: I've been peeking reviews and I'm a bit worried at some people dissing Mr. Fear as a Scarecrow rip-off , I think that Fear - as debated in this thread- has his own characheristics, and besides, his uniform is worked to fit the "Mighty Villain looks" (I mean, à la Dr. Doom: Impress and frighten your foe with your looks). And Lark's new look for Fear improves the previous designs. Scarecrow's costume I always found more pathetic than scary.
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject:

Gloria wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

First his costume sucks, he needs a better one. Red and black would be a colour be a better scheme. Also his mask sucks, give him a creepy smiling theater mask.

Do you have a picture of the Buscema costume?

Gloria wrote:

Maybe a new design should be worked upon Commedia dell'Arte characters (also here and here) , or follow/polish Winslade's Punch idea, or make him the Cyrano/Scaramouche type... There's quite an array of options.

I still think he needs a Greek "Comedy" mask, that could look creepy. His current half mask sucks, that's about as effective as Robin mask.

http://www.unitedmaskandparty.com/Masks/images/comedy_tragedy_bw.JPG

The Overlord wrote:

Gloria wrote:

)

Well consider Jester reformed during the O'Neil era and then returned back to crime decades later with no explanation and was used almost exclusive as a throw away villain, he needs a very good reason to explain why he is a criminal again. I was thinking that the guy who screwed him over became really famous by making really bad, but popular films, while Powers renewed attempt at acting failed. The fact that Jester would have a legit beef with this person could explain why he is a criminal again. If you want to use him as a recurring villain, you could have him have a psychotic break down after DD foils his revenge scheme, with Powers being convinced that life is movie and he thinks movie characters talk directly to him.

Gloria wrote:

Back to topic: I've been peeking reviews and I'm a bit worried at some people dissing Mr. Fear as a Scarecrow rip-off , I think that Fear - as debated in this thread- has his own characheristics, and besides, his uniform is worked to fit the "Mighty Villain looks" (I mean, à la Dr. Doom: Impress and frighten your foe with your looks). And Lark's new look for Fear improves the previous designs. Scarecrow's costume I always found more pathetic than scary.

What about TNAB Scarecrow:

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/batman/tnba/bios/scarecrow/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owaMoWmD2vE

The problem is all of these little differences are lost on general comic book fans who are not DD fanatics. For example most comic fans won't care that Jester is an actor and Joker is not or Jester is good fencing and Joker is not, most will see a clown villain whose name is even similar to Joker's and will declare him a Joker a rip off. Maybe that's not fair, that's how things work. The same deal with Scarecrow/Mr. Fear. If are two similar characters, often the more popular one will be praised and the other be treated with contempt. I have heard some people say Captain cold was rip off Mr. Freeze, even though Mr. Freeze appeared two years after Cold.

That's why I'm kinda glad Owl's dead (should have stayed dead after 2001), DD having 3 villains that are similar to a sterotype that DD is a poor man's Batman and that even his villains are carbon copies of Batman. 3 similar villains is one too many and Owl has been given a lot of chances to shine and has failed every time. He's the odd man out.

Of course I think DD fans would do this well, I mean there maybe a number of small differences between Kingpin and Tobias Whale, but after looking at picture of Tobias Whale, would see anything but a Kingpin rip off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobias_Whale

Last edited by The Overlord on Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total

Neilan
Tree of Knowledge

Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:51 am Post subject:

The Overlord wrote:

The problem is all of these little differences are lost on general comic book fans who are not DD fanatics. For example most comic fans won't care that Jester is an actor and Joker is not or Jester is good fencing and Joker is not, most will see a clown villain whose name is even similar to Joker's and will declare him a Joker a rip off. Maybe that's fair, that's how things work. The same deal with Scarecrow/Mr. Fear. If are two similar characters, often the more popular one will be praised and the other be treated with contempt. I have heard some people say Captain cold was rip off Mr. Freeze, even though Mr. Freeze appeared two years after Cold.

For me, the Jester's original toy theme, coupled with his humiliating acting career in which he was forced to act like a clown, was enough to set him apart from the Joker. Granted I hadn't read much Joker since the Silver Age, but the similarities didn't strike me right away, when I first read those issues, way back when.
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The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:11 am Post subject:

Neilan wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

Joker uses toy weapons all the time and Toyman's whole gimmick is toys.

As for As for being an actor, most general comic book fans won't care. They will still think Jester is a Joker is rip off no matter if he is an actor or not. Comics are business and in business yo often only have a few seconds to sell your message. So its hard to seel Jester to people who aren't DD fans.

Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:55 am Post subject:

Quote:

They will still think Jester is a Joker is rip off no matter if he is an actor or not.

Then the problem is theirs, because they probably didn't get neither Joker nor Jester. And would probably confuse DD with a Batman rip off anyway.

Quote:

Comics are business and in business yo often only have a few seconds to sell your message.

I don't think that's the most immediate problem, especially with a quality title such as Daredevil. Look at what happens when the "business" "message" aspects of comics are stressed too much. "The MU will never be the same again!!!", "Elektra is a skrull so anyone can be a skrull w00t!", "Page 28 will change everything!".
Maybe comics hyped this way have sold more, but I don't think anyone can deny the quality of said comics has been, in the end, average or below average.

In conclusion, I wouldn't care if a future daredevil comic will be solicited with "The all new Jester makes his debut with a different costume/motivation!!!".
A future DD comic could as well have the same old Jester. What is really important is what the authors can do with the Jester.

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject:

Francesco wrote:

Quote:

They will still think Jester is a Joker is rip off no matter if he is an actor or not.

Then the problem is theirs, because they probably didn't get neither Joker nor Jester. And would probably confuse DD with a Batman rip off anyway.

Well perhaps its unfair, but does exist amongst almost everyone who is a comic book fan and not a DD long time DD fan. Its a little hard to keep a DD comic afloat if you only market it to DD fans and can't attract new readers. But it is a bit unfair, I mean Post crisis Lex luthor did borrow a lot from Kingpin and no calls Lex a Kingpin knock off.

Quote:

Comics are business and in business yo often only have a few seconds to sell your message.

Francesco wrote:

Well there is a difference between a solid business plan and cheap marketing ploys. I don't think making Elekra a Skrull is a tactic that wil ensure long term readership.

Francesco wrote:

In conclusion, I wouldn't care if a future daredevil comic will be solicited with "The all new Jester makes his debut with a different costume/motivation!!!".
A future DD comic could as well have the same old Jester. What is really important is what the authors can do with the Jester.

I disagree, I think his costume sucks and he needs a better motive. Him forgetting to take acting lessons is the kinda mistake a 10 year old could have pointed out to him, its not interesting, its just stupid. Lacking common sense is not an interesting character trait in of itself, unless its a comedy. If he made such a mistake, he wouldn't be cultured and quoting Shakespear, because he would be an idiotin first place, who wouldn't be good at that.

There is nothing wrong with revamping a character a bit. Miller made Kingpin way less goofy when he brought him into DD. what about Catman do you really think it didn't become a better character when he was revamped in Villains United? Also look at Mr. Freeze, do you think Mr. Freeze was better character before BTAS (where he had no real motive) or after BTAS (where he had a motive and became a tragic character)?

Gloria
Redemption

Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:06 pm Post subject:

The Overlord wrote:

Do you have a picture of the Buscema costume?

Here you are

The Overlord wrote:

Mmh... but the he could be accused of being a Psycho-Pirate Ripp-off.

Still, if we go for theatre masks, I'd go to the greek clssical style, which would give an arcane touch (see here and here)

Personally, I'd prefer a half-face mask à la Commedia dell'Arte, as it allows more expression to the face

BTW, the theatre was originated by rites in honour of Dyonisos, God of wine and, ahem,... ultimate lack of inhibition, that ould be another path to follow. Alan Moore made good use of Dyonisiac elements in "From Hell": I'm not meaning here that Powers should necessary follow Dr. Gull's gogitations or methods, just hinting at the power of old myths and cults.

And theatre world is full of elements which could be used, what about Noh Masks being used too?

The Overlord wrote:

I don't think Jester's trouble is "not having taken his acting lessons": I really think he can act. He's an actor at heart: he just loves being under the limelight.

My take is this one: nowadays we have people with no acting talent whatsoever who get lead parts. Take Mark Whalberg, for instance: he plays leads even if his greatest talent is just looking good in underwear ads, while talented actors with sound stage training are hired for secondary character parts (and, these, incidentally, are the ones who save the films)... we could have Powers resented about that.

Ans sinc wee are discussing what makes a good villain in the case of Mr. Fear or others, I believe two things: First, an author must take chances... Nocenti created many new DD foes during her DD run: I think this is good. Brubaker is opting for bringing old characthers back and breathe new life in them: I think it is good, too... both have taken/are taking chances to bring to Dd other enemies/situations than just the old DD vs. Bullseye, or DD vs. Kingpin scenarios, which are a tad too overused... and Kingpin and Bullsyeye would mean nothing at all,if someone had not taken the chances of. first, creating them, and second, turning them into interesting villains. So Kudos to Mr. Brubaker for re-vamping Mr. Fear.

An then, as Francesco points, good writing helps a lot. As for the relevance of being and old series follower or not... I may get a comic I have never read, and be thoroughly unfamiliar with the hero or villain's background, but if the story is good, I won't mind, i.e.: I haven't frequented the DC universe much, I mean, I'm not a regular, but knowing nothing -or very little-, about the characters in Giffen/deMatteis JLA/JLE/JLI, I fell in love with the series and the characters. And I think that Brubaker's DD can be well followed by those who are not familiar with the character at all.
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

Francesco
Underboss

Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I disagree, I think his costume sucks and he needs a better motive.

But he could be written in a sucky way even if you renew his costume and motivation!
And anyway, even if you change his costume and motivation, the problem you pointed persists! To the occasional reader he may still look like a Joker Rip-off, despite these changes!
(unless the change in his costume/motive isn't radical to the point that he no longer looks like a "Jester").

Quote:

Well there is a difference between a solid business plan and cheap marketing ploys.

Of course.
solid business plan = hire good pencilers/writers and cover artists.

cheap marketing ploys = "hey, let's change Bullseye's costume, make him more "street-level"!"

The Overlord
Paradiso

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095

Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject:

Gloria wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

Do you have a picture of the Buscema costume?

Here you are

That's alright, but I think it needs more cow bell. That's good baseline though.

Gloria wrote:

The Overlord wrote:

Mmh... but the he could be accused of being a Psycho-Pirate Ripp-off.

Who cares about Psycho Pirate, he 's not popular to think anyone ripped him off.

Gloria wrote:

Still, if we go for theatre masks, I'd go to the greek clssical style, which would give an arcane touch (see here and here)

Personally, I'd prefer a half-face mask à la Commedia dell'Arte, as it allows more expression to the face

Meh, I'm not sold on the whole Commedia dell'Arte thing. Seems vague, how would work in a comic? Its kinda hard to form an opinion on it, because I saw 7 different pics in that wiki.

Anyway I was thinking of a simple mask, very similar to the Greek comedy mask, a white mask with a smile. I think he needs something really unique visually to make him standout. I believe in kiss (keep it simple stupid). Plus think he would like creepier if he hides his face under a small, simple mask. Its almost like a emotional wounded actor hiding pain behind a role. But when he really gets emotional he would tear off the mask and show his true face and his true emotions.

Gloria wrote:

BTW, the theatre was originated by rites in honour of Dyonisos, God of wine and, ahem,... ultimate lack of inhibition, that ould be another path to follow. Alan Moore made good use of Dyonisiac elements in "From Hell": I'm not meaning here that Powers should necessary follow Dr. Gull's gogitations or methods, just hinting at the power of old myths and cults.

I didn't read from Hell, how would that work?

Gloria wrote:

I don't think Jester's trouble is "not having taken his acting lessons": I really think he can act. He's an actor at heart: he just loves being under the limelight.

According to his marvel bio, he is a bad actor:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Jester

You need to retcon him some acting skills.

Gloria wrote:

My take is this one: nowadays we have people with no acting talent whatsoever who get lead parts. Take Mark Whalberg, for instance: he plays leads even if his greatest talent is just looking good in underwear ads, while talented actors with sound stage training are hired for secondary character parts (and, these, incidentally, are the ones who save the films)... we could have Powers resented about that.

Ah Whalberg is alright, he was good in Boogie Nights.

So is Powers mentally ill, which is why he attacks bad actors? I don't know, that's okay, but it needs a little more.

Keep in mind, Powers some supposed to have reformed during the O'Neil era, so there should be a good explanation as to why he is a criminal again.

As I said before, if you retcon his background so that his career
was ruined by someone else, it gives him a more real reason as to why he is a criminal. If another actor ruined his career and Jester seeks revenge on him, that seems like a real reason for him to be a criminal again. His second attempt as an actor failed, while the jerk who ruined his career in the first place is now a millionaire. That's better then him attacking a random bad actor, IMO.

Gloria wrote:

Ans sinc wee are discussing what makes a good villain in the case of Mr. Fear or others, I believe two things: First, an author must take chances... Nocenti created many new DD foes during her DD run: I think this is good. Brubaker is opting for bringing old characthers back and breathe new life in them: I think it is good, too... both have taken/are taking chances to bring to Dd other enemies/situations than just the old DD vs. Bullseye, or DD vs. Kingpin scenarios, which are a tad too overused... and Kingpin and Bullsyeye would mean nothing at all,if someone had not taken the chances of. first, creating them, and second, turning them into interesting villains. So Kudos to Mr. Brubaker for re-vamping Mr. Fear.

I applaud Brubaker for trying to use some new villains. Most characters are not bad, but are badly written. after all Gail Simone did make an interesting character out of Catman.

[quote="Francesco"]

But he could be written in a sucky way even if you renew his costume and motivation!
And anyway, even if you change his costume and motivation, the problem you pointed persists! To the occasional reader he may still look like a Joker Rip-off, despite these changes!
(unless the change in his costume/motive isn't radical to the point that he no longer looks like a "Jester").
[quote]

That's I am saying, Jester being seen as a Joker rip off will always be a major hump for the character, so he will need amazing writing so most reviewers won't just say "Jester is just the poor mans Joker, skip this arc".

Also having a costume that is not aesthetic nightmare is always a good thing.

Anyway considering that Jester is supposed have reformed during the O'Neil era, he needs a really good reason to explain why is a criminal again. His old motive doesn't work that character needs development to explain why he is criminal again or else the character has been regressed since the O'Neil era. That's why he needs a new motive, because if you don't, then you have regressed the character. Also you have avoided my main point, is Mr. freeze a better character after he got a better motive?

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