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...and another one bites the dust. *NEW AVENGERS SPOILERS*
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryhausen wrote:

I'm a newbie, admittedly, but I think it's cool that Bendis spans the MU. He revives characters and ties in points from all over the past 40 years of Marvel. That's interesting, to me. I admire the pluck it takes to tangle with these sacred cows. All the 'events' that are so derided so often (HoM, Disassembled, etc. - even CW [not Bendis's "fault," by the way]) are interesting. I bet that in 10 years when we look back at these trades and see the progression, it will stand the test of time. At least Bendis is trying to do something.


Wow, I couldn't disagree more. You see, the thing is, to me (and some others I imagine) it just seems like Bendis is doing a ridiculously cynical thing right now. It's like he's completely sold out substance for hype. I mean, just look at your "praise" for him. You say that he "ties in points from all over the past 40 years of Marvel". What? Where? You say he "tangles with sacred cows". If you mean "tosses around sacred cows in an effort to make it appear that he's tangling with him", then yeah. He does. You see the thing is Bendis certainly isn't scared to say he does all these things but (and here's the problem) the thing is: he doesn't really do them. Thus far his whole Avengers Saga has been nothing but one SHOCKING event after another with no regard for what came before or what's going to come after. Unfortunately by using this formula he has somehow tapped into some weird market of people who just take him at his word. "This is important?? I'll take three".

10 years from now this stuff won't be remembered. And if it is it'll be remembered in that "heh, heh, well that was...cool?" way that late 90s guys with big guns are remembered. It's popular at the time but ultimately empty.
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harryhausen
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 129
Location: U$A

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're right, CyberGhostface - if I were an Owl fan, I might be pissed. Sorry.

The point about Leland getting beat up in prison is just to show another time where he displayed as a goofball to be dismissed, not a true threat. His "death" at the hands of the Hood, in fact, emphasizes that he's low-rent [as they say: a man with a rented truck, 3 days out of jail, etc.] - a minor player in modern MU conception.

Castle, I hear you, too, my man. I don't know if it's pure hype or not, but I like that the old characters are at least trotted out. I think there is some substance to the planning at work. Granted, I hate the marketing angle of all these events, too. I took some of Brubaker's advice and stopped reading solicits, so I don't have to worry about that as much. Plus, I don't read interviews too often, either.

But, as for tying in points from Marvel history - he references the Kree-Skrull War, the first Secret War, Marvel Boy, the Infinity Gauntlet, the Savage Land, and all these forgotten villains from the past. Plus, he revives more recent characters (Echo, Sentry, the Hood) to good effect. I like that there's someone running amok in the MU, reeling off crazy plots. It's fun. It's not Frank Miller, but it's fun. Like a big-budget action movie.

And, man, I'm telling you. The NA and MA books are hugely enjoyable. I wanted to resist - read only indies and "slum" with DD as my only mainstream title - but I'm always excited to open the new Avengers book and see what's cookin'.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no great Bendis fan. He's sloppy with his own chronology. [I mean, NA and MA have unreconcilable chronology problems between them going on RIGHT NOW - and he's writing both!]. His dialogue tics still make me cringe. He writes everyone as a Jewish grandmother sometimes. But the overall plots are great.

Seems the difference is in the fact that you think he makes a show of using these past characters and comic hallmarks and I think he actually does. Probably an undebatable point.

Also, his books are 'important' in the sense that much of Marvel continuity is affected in them. Whether they're good or not, they tend to have far-reaching ramifications and resonate on that level, at least. If you hate what he's doing, then I bet that's bad news. When will he be EiC, you ask, eh?

I hate to be a pro-Bendis voice alone in the wilderness, here. But thought I should mention that the Avengers books are better than the short shrift they're given in the eyes of most posters.
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CyberGhostface
Playing to the Camera


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

harryhausen wrote:
The point about Leland getting beat up in prison is just to show another time where he displayed as a goofball to be dismissed, not a true threat. His "death" at the hands of the Hood, in fact, emphasizes that he's low-rent [as they say: a man with a rented truck, 3 days out of jail, etc.] - a minor player in modern MU conception.


Him getting beaten up by a crazed Murdock is a different situation than Owl getting shot down by the Hood. I can't think of any villains at the moment, but say there's a classic Spider-Man villain that's been around since Lee's run. He's not much of a challenge and gets beaten up a lot. Would that be justification to off him in an attempt to make some newcomer look 'badass'?
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberGhostface wrote:
harryhausen wrote:
The point about Leland getting beat up in prison is just to show another time where he displayed as a goofball to be dismissed, not a true threat. His "death" at the hands of the Hood, in fact, emphasizes that he's low-rent [as they say: a man with a rented truck, 3 days out of jail, etc.] - a minor player in modern MU conception.


Him getting beaten up by a crazed Murdock is a different situation than Owl getting shot down by the Hood. I can't think of any villains at the moment, but say there's a classic Spider-Man villain that's been around since Lee's run. He's not much of a challenge and gets beaten up a lot. Would that be justification to off him in an attempt to make some newcomer look 'badass'?


*cough* Mysterio *cough*
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CyberGhostface
Playing to the Camera


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the same idea as what I was referring to, but Mysterio's death is even worse, considering how Smith perverted the character and made him a drug-dealing, child impregnating murderer. At least he's back now, albeit as a ghost/demon.
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge


Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
It's halarious how Bendis is shaking up the DD mythos in other Marvel comics (ie. Skullektra and apparently the end of one of DD's oldest foes--and Spidey has so many to choose from). You would think the end of the Owl should have happened in the pages of DAREDEVIL.


harryhausen wrote:
Quote:
You're right, CyberGhostface - if I were an Owl fan, I might be pissed. Sorry.

The point about Leland getting beat up in prison is just to show another time where he displayed as a goofball to be dismissed, not a true threat. His "death" at the hands of the Hood, in fact, emphasizes that he's low-rent [as they say: a man with a rented truck, 3 days out of jail, etc.] - a minor player in modern MU conception.


Cyberghostface wrote:
Quote:
Him getting beaten up by a crazed Murdock is a different situation than Owl getting shot down by the Hood. I can't think of any villains at the moment, but say there's a classic Spider-Man villain that's been around since Lee's run. He's not much of a challenge and gets beaten up a lot. Would that be justification to off him in an attempt to make some newcomer look 'badass'?


The analogy that I would make is that Spider-Man's long
standing villain was killed in the pages of another book.

Some people didn't like this character, but those that did would have a right to be pissed.

Some thought he was a second rate or low rent villain.

He was a long-standing character, created by Lee, who was a big part of the mythos and had been in the hero's story for a long time.

You could argue that he was killed to make Kevin Smith look like a badass.
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
[Bendis]"tosses around sacred cows in an effort to make it appear that he's tangling with him"


Quote:
Thus far his whole Avengers Saga has been nothing but one SHOCKING event after another with no regard for what came before or what's going to come after.


I couldn't agree more.
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Gloria
Redemption


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Suburbia around Barcelona

PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberGhostface wrote:
...Mysterio's death is even worse, considering how Smith perverted the character and made him a drug-dealing, child impregnating murderer.


Poor Mysterio, he was just a pawn in the evil machinations of the REAL mastermind who crapped Murdock's life: Kevin Smith!

I hope one day Murdock gets even and gives a good fat kicking to the B*stard who really killed Karen.
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it was a hit and run (Mysterio's death and even Karen's death to some extent), but I actually enjoyed that arc. Go ahead, start throwing the tomatoes at me. Razz

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Gloria
Redemption


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clayton,

Good tomatoes are pretty expensive nowadays, and I'd rather use it for culinary ends, so I won't comply. Wink

"Hit and Run"... ha, ha, this is the shortest and most precise review of that saga I've ever read. Smile

I admit it is very spectacular in the first read... but on further readings I feel that there is a lot of noise and fury but little substance within.

And maybe I've grown a bit annoyed with the "Guardian Devil" saga, because every then and now I come across people that rate it over "born Again" (this of course grates the Miller DD zealot I am Laughing )
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"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"
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Forrest
Lowlife


Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gloria wrote:
And maybe I've grown a bit annoyed with the "Guardian Devil" saga, because every then and now I come across people that rate it over "born Again" (this of course grates the Miller DD zealot I am Laughing )


Yep, you'll find some of these people on the Bendis Board... Razz
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