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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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 Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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Eh, that may be the precise antonym of constructive criticism. It's one step above shouting "you suck!" (it is the equivalent of shouting "people think you suck!"). I can't fault him at all for his response, which may not have been friendly but was still measured.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Marcus Plato wrote: | I posted the link to this thread to Soule on Twitter; his response was lacklustre to say the least. I said "Interesting feedback from some hardcore DD fans..."
Soule: "Define interesting"
Me: "I think feedback from diehard fans is interesting, unless of course the fans don't matter..."
Somehow I get the feeling that my last comment is true in his case. |
Good for him!
I'm not loving the new run but some of the negativity here is a bit over the top. I feel bad for creators these days insofar as they put themselves out there and fans have more access to them than ever but the sum effect of that seems to be that fans don't hesitate to tell them they suck to their face.
Do people want to gather here and complain about the new run? Sure. That's great. Tweeting directly at the creator to tell him about this thread in particular? That's just dumb. And to pretend that him not thanking you for injecting some random negativity into his life is equal to him not caring about fans is flat out insane.
I don't get the mob of "fans" who think it's their god given right/duty to publicly crap on creators. If you don't like something don't read it.
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Marcus Plato
Flying Blind
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: |
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In retrospect, you guys are most definitely right.
I was just curious to see, in my drunken cranky-old-man way (which is the way Twitter works) if the rantings of we DD fans meant anything to him. I'm sure they do, though I shouldn't have asked, as it was obviously presumptuous of me.
I sincerely apologise to Mr Soule and anyone else I've offended (although I'm sure he wasn't).
I've simply lost faith in the direction the only character I've ever given a damn about is going and was trying to invite Mr Soule to contribute to this debate, which I should have done in a more positive way.
Hopefully my fellow fans will find a way to forgive my outrageous comments and we can move forward in a more positive way.
Again, I deeply regret any and all offence I've caused.
That being said, I've personally enjoyed moments from the current run, although I'd love to see DD back in the classic costume.
Peace, and long live The Man Without Fear. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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You could have phrased it more constructively. How about "hey, a group of fans have been discussing the pros and cons of your new series. We hope you'll be interested in checking it out"?
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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Marcus Plato
Flying Blind
Joined: 15 Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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You're right; "Interesting feedback from some hardcore DD fans" was obviously far too harsh.
Again, I apologise. |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run |
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| jriddle wrote: | Tired Devil Dept. - It really is time for some frank talk about the current volume of Daredevil. Let's go ahead and say it: this just isn't working. The single word brought most forcefully to mind by these first 8 issues is "superficial." Charles Soule has opted to write the book as a superficial adventure-of-the-month title featuring a central character with almost no inner life and no real supporting cast. Soule's stories are generic, by the numbers--one could plug just about any other hero into the lead role without having to change much. They have no impact, they don't lead to anything and they don't amount to anything.
Soule has introduced some elements that could, if properly worked, make for an interesting book but after introducing them, he doesn't do anything with them.
Matt as a prosecutor is an intriguing idea and addresses a longstanding dichotomy in the character. Alas, Soule has done almost nothing with it. Everyone with whom Matt works in this capacity is a faceless non-entity. The work itself has primarily been presented as something that sometimes gets in the way of his Daredevil business. Not much, though--he's been shown as free to simply leave his job to go bust heads whenever he wants.
Blindspot, DD's sidekick from Chinatown, is another new wrinkle. Having Daredevil train a protege is something with which a talented writer could work and, of course, Blindspot is a story in himself. Unfortunately, this, too, has been mostly skipped over. Blindspot has barely been touched upon, his training mostly happens off-camera, he was given one brief moment to shine then he practically disappeared from the book--a very brief encounter with Elektra that doesn't go well and seems to have been included for no other purpose than to add to the page-count and he's gone since.
Soule brought in Elektra, which, in a DD book, is like invoking the nuclear option, then didn't really do anything with her. Her two-issue story arc reads like the set-up for a much more interesting story--and, in fact, it lays out some things that will have to be addressed by someone at some point--but Soule walks away from his most spectacular twist (that Matt and Elektra have a child) then just abandons the story he'd set up. The next issue moves on to something else entirely, which can't help but add to the feeling of pointlessness this run has so far generated. In #8, Matt is suddenly participating in a poker tournament in Macau, the tone is suddenly straight James Bond and not so suddenly, I just don't care.
Soule inherited a book that was in utter creative ruin, as low a point as DD had ever been in its 50+ year history. The big Marvel Secret Wars event offered him the opportunity to simply hit the reset button and entirely delete Mark Waid's abominable rape of the character. Whether by choice or by editorial edict, he declined to do so and the "solution" he concocted--having Matt somehow erase from every mind on Earth the knowledge of his secret identity--has made an unbelievable mess of not only DD's continuity but that of countless characters with whom DD has interacted over the years. Large portions of his history are now entirely inexplicable. Elektra, Ben Urich, Spider-Man, the Black Widow--it makes my head hurt to even think about the destruction this has wrought and all in the name of preserving that godawful Waid run that never should have happened in the first place. It's like allowing Waid to continue to destroy the book months after he's entirely left it. And, of course, how Matt did this remains entirely unexplained, something that drifts around between Matt's thoughts from issue to issue. The big, obvious reason why keeping it around as a constant subplot is so problematic is that it couldn't be less interesting. No resolution--if, that is, one is ever even offered--is going to be satisfying or less than an ill-conceived insult. As it stands now, this is just an awful prior run that's being allowed to poison not only what should have been a fresh start but DD's entire history.
Soule's artists have returned some semblance of the proper pulp noir tone to the book, though the writer himself hasn't quite figured this out yet. The first story arc, drawn by Ron Garney and colorist Matt Milla, was, in fact, a great experiment in comic artwork. Visually innovative, perfectly suited to the character and looking like nothing else coming out of Marvel--a joy to see. Unfortunately--notice how that word keeps turning up?--Marvel can't seem to keep a regular artist on the book. In only 8 issues, there have now been three and the two following Garney have simply tried to imitate Garney.
"Superficial" may be the word much of this run brings most immediately to mind but another that also ranks prominently is "disappointing." Soule needs to seriously shape up. If this is really all he has to offer, it's time for Marvel to find a new writer for this book. |
No offense, but weren't you one of the people who was so upset with Waid's run and wanted his run to be erased from continuity and be replaced by a different, darker take, isn't that what we are getting with Soule? At one point, didn't you say anything would be a vast improvement over Waid, so be careful what you wish for.
Its hard to say this story is in continuity with Waid's run, when Waid's whole run was about DD's ID being public knowledge and living in San Fran, Soule's run essentially undoes a lot of what Waid did. This seems a bit like getting what you want and being unhappy with your prize. Its hard to see this as a continuation of Waid's run if it changes the setting and the themes of Waid's run, this seems like at least like a soft reboot, you just seem to be unhappy that isn't more of hard reboot, but DC tried that with the New 52 reboot and that became a mess, so how would a hard reboot of DD not ended the same way? A continuation of run would be Brubaker after Bendis, who took Bendis' themes and ideas and put his own spin on things, this not what Soule did with Waid's run.
Soule's run is not perfect, but he has just started and really no writer can please anyone, there is not going to be a perfect writer for this title, a lot of people seem to have problems with Bendis' run on this message board and let's face it, 80s Frank Miller is not coming back, his current work is pretty bad. Also guess what, some people liked Waid run. You can't please everyone, no one should try that.
You wanted a continuity reboot for DD and you got it, they went with the nuclear option in terms of dealing with continuity and so of course there will be fallout, nothing was going to be perfect in this situation.
I think with DD or any ongoing comic book character, is that writers are going to put their own quirks and writing style into how they write and that may not be your cup of tea, but that doesn't mean others won't find things to like. You can't expect Marvel to cater to one fan's tastes. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run |
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| The Overlord wrote: |
No offense, but weren't you one of the people who was so upset with Waid's run and wanted his run to be erased from continuity and be replaced by a different, darker take, isn't that what we are getting with Soule? At one point, didn't you say anything would be a vast improvement over Waid, so be careful what you wish for. |
This is what I always find so fascinating about "hardcore" fans of a character. jriddle, presumably, is a big Daredevil fan. Except that he doesn't like the current run. Also, he didn't like Waid's run either. Given that Waid started in 2011 jriddle, despite being a huge Daredevil fan, hasn't actually liked Daredevil, the comic for over half a decade. So...what makes him a fan again? Because he liked Miller and Bendis' runs? Maybe jriddle is just a Miller/Bendis fan.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| I too am starting to have some perplexities about the current run, but for now, frankly, I am more than happy that we have left behind Waid's run and his silly comedic tones and convoluted gimmicks. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | I too am starting to have some perplexities about the current run, but for now, frankly, I am more than happy that we have left behind Waid's run and his silly comedic tones and convoluted gimmicks. |
To be honest I'm sort of having trouble with most Marvel books these days. Is it just me or are things skewing younger?
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think it depends on the book. Certainly not for Ultimates. But I thought comics swung too old for awhile so it's probably good to swing that pendulum the other way before all you old people die off 
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | [To be honest I'm sort of having trouble with most Marvel books these days. Is it just me or are things skewing younger? |
I'd be curious to find out what you think of Steve Rogers: Captain America. Of the titles Marvel is putting out these days, Black Widow, Daredevil and Steve Rogers don't seem to be skewing younger than their predecessors. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Dimetre wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | [To be honest I'm sort of having trouble with most Marvel books these days. Is it just me or are things skewing younger? |
I'd be curious to find out what you think of Steve Rogers: Captain America. Of the titles Marvel is putting out these days, Black Widow, Daredevil and Steve Rogers don't seem to be skewing younger than their predecessors. |
I'm reading on Marvel Unlimited so I'm something like six months behind. Black Widow and Steve Rogers: Captain America aren't out yet but I'll read both when they do hit Unlimited. I am reading the Sam Wilson Captain America and am enjoying it so far. I guess most of my reaction is to the new X-Men titles which have been across the board terrible in my opinion. Similar to some of the Daredevil complaints it just seems like they're going for fairly straight forward stuff.
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DesignDevil
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Several complaints I've seen revolve around the mystery being drawn out. I don't mind this in the slightest. I'm enjoying the ride so far.
I do wish Foggy played a bigger role and more of Matt's personal life was explored, but I wonder if this is intentional. Matt has let himself be consumed by his two jobs and Matt Murdock has no real life, and thats going to bite him in the ass eventually.
So far I've overall liked the stories Soule has done, especially the last 3 issues which were awesome in both story and art. The Tenfingers story could've been better, but it was nice intro to Blindspot and the art was incredible. The Daredevil/Punisher miniseries series isn't bad, its just retreading ground we've all seen many times before. The "crossover" Deadpool issue Soule took part in with Daredevil, Deadpool, Power Man, and Iron Fist was awesome as well. It was definitely the most fun Soule has had with Daredevil so far and we got to see al title more of Matt at his day job.
I'm just happy to have a Matt Murdock again who isn't a moron. |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:34 am Post subject: Re: Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | No offense, but weren't you one of the people who was so upset with Waid's run and wanted his run to be erased from continuity and be replaced by a different, darker take, isn't that what we are getting with Soule? At one point, didn't you say anything would be a vast improvement over Waid, so be careful what you wish for. |
This has been a vast improvement over Waid. That doesn't make it particularly good--being a vast improvement over Waid isn't much of a trick.
| The Overlord wrote: | | Its hard to say this story is in continuity with Waid's run, when Waid's whole run was about DD's ID being public knowledge and living in San Fran, Soule's run essentially undoes a lot of what Waid did. This seems a bit like getting what you want and being unhappy with your prize. |
No, it really doesn't.
| The Overlord wrote: | | You wanted a continuity reboot for DD and you got it, they went with the nuclear option in terms of dealing with continuity and so of course there will be fallout, nothing was going to be perfect in this situation. |
This isn't a "continuity reboot." The problems with it emerge from trying to leave Waid in continuity. The smart option in this case would have been to simply erase the entire Waid disaster from DD's history and blame it on "Secret Wars." Waid had no interest in writing Daredevil, so he'd completely destroyed the book in order to turn it into something he did want to write. The problem this presented any successor is that, while scores of talented writers would love to tackle DD, no other writer in the world gives a good goddamn about continuing Grinning Happy Devil the San Francisco Celebrity & His Knee-Slapping Early Bronze Age Hijinks. The book hadn't been remotely identifiable as Daredevil for years. So if Daredevil is continued, this has to be fixed, no matter who takes up the creative reigns.
From that point, it's just a matter of how, and the world-shaping of Secret Wars offered the best out. Soule opted for a different path. As I said before, that path may have been forced upon him by editorial, so it may not even be right to blame him for it, but it presents a raft of intractable problems that expand outward to the entire Marvel Universe in a devastating way--it's using a hydrogen bomb to kill a weasel when a small-caliber rifle was readily available. At the same time, as already noted, no explanation Soule is going to offer--and no explanation anyone else could either--is going to be dramatically satisfying or anything less than an inane insult. It's a reset button, no matter how you cut it. What he's done was a VERY bad idea.
| The Overlord wrote: | | I think with DD or any ongoing comic book character, is that writers are going to put their own quirks and writing style into how they write and that may not be your cup of tea, but that doesn't mean others won't find things to like. You can't expect Marvel to cater to one fan's tastes. |
...and clearly, that's exactly what I'm insisting Marvel do in this case. Tell me again why we have these discussion boards? |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Some frank talk about the current Daredevil run |
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| jriddle wrote: |
From that point, it's just a matter of how, and the world-shaping of Secret Wars offered the best out. Soule opted for a different path. As I said before, that path may have been forced upon him by editorial, so it may not even be right to blame him for it, but it presents a raft of intractable problems that expand outward to the entire Marvel Universe in a devastating way--it's using a hydrogen bomb to kill a weasel when a small-caliber rifle was readily available. At the same time, as already noted, no explanation Soule is going to offer--and no explanation anyone else could either--is going to be dramatically satisfying or anything less than an inane insult. It's a reset button, no matter how you cut it. What he's done was a VERY bad idea.
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See, I think the core problem here is that you're applying a standard of continuity or sense that just doesn't apply to comics. Are you honestly suggesting that continuity of Marvel comics have to make sense for the entire run of the comic/character? That's impossible. No character and no comic lives up to that standard. How could it? The Marvel Universe is full, absolutely full, of "intractable problems".
Demanding that continuity be respected or made sense of or whatever is just a crutch people use when they just want to complain.
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