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| What did you think of DAREDEVIL #14? |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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 Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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DesignDevil
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 11 Sep 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I don't see why people have to choose either/or when it comes to "light" vs "dark" (though I'd argue there's both more humor in the dark stuff and more darkness in the light stuff than some give either credit for). I love Mark Waid and Chris Samnee's Daredevil. I also love Frank Miller's Daredevil. And Brian Michael Bendis and Alex Maleev's Daredevil. And Ed Brubaker and Michael Lark's Daredevil. I don't think that Waid and Samnee's run should be dismissed by virtue of being different. Rather I think it's a testament to the strength of Matt Murdock as a character that he can be in stories with vastly different aesthetics and tones and still remain true to who he is.
I think it's underselling Daredevil to assume that he is simply his surroundings and the palette his world is drawn in. When something is strong, it doesn't break when pushed, it bends. And Matt Murdock is a character that has shown he can adapt and even thrive in a new environment, while still retaining enough of who he is for when things revert back to something more familiar.
Personally speaking, I've been a fan of Daredevil comics since the 90s, but I've never found Daredevil/Matt Murdock more likeable and relatable than since Waid took over, and it's during this run that Daredevil has crystalised for me from being a character I like to being my favourite character in the Marvel Universe. |
I agree almost completely with your first two paragraphs WilsonFisk. The last one however is the exact opposite for me though. I also first discovered Daredevil in the mid-90s and I've read almost everything all the way back to around 140 of vol 1 and there've been very few stories where I've found Matt Murdock more unappealing as a character than over the last two years.
Even in the badly written Daredevil stories over all these decades, it always felt like Murdock in them. Take the DD:Father example from a few posts back. Father is a bad story, no doubt, starring Matt Murdock that feels like Matt Murdock in a terribly written story. To me Waid's last 1-2 years it just feels like a great quirky story starring someone posing as Matt Murdock who neither speaks nor acts like the character I love. The decline started right after the Bullseye story Waid did which I loved.
As you said, people tend to overlook the grim darkness of Waid's run, mostly because of the art style, and they tend to overlook all the humor of other "darker" runs. I have no problem with Matt Murdock getting his head teleported off or riding on Silver Surfers board. I have a problem with him not acting and reacting like the character I've been reading for years, like in the example I posted earlier in the thread. Maybe thats Waid's point and this is all just Matt going crazy in a new way and its all leading somewhere with a point, but its gone on waaaaay too long.
And my 14 year old niece, who a total ditz, is more mature than Kirsten McDuffie has ever been portrayed. She has the excuse of being 14 though. |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I don't really have a problem with Kirsten McDuffie. It seems to be a rite of passage for Daredevil's current love interest to be hated. I mean, I've seen people bemoaning how Kirsten pales in comparison to Milla Donovan, yet I can remember Milla being loathed by the fanbase back when she was in a relationship with Matt.
As for Matt Murdock, I think Waid absolutely nailed his characterisation throughout Volume 3, and for much of Volume 4, too. With this current storyline, I agree, he seems to have gone off the deep-end and is acting totally unlike himself. But I'd also add that the characters around him are all saying exactly that within the story, so we're SUPPOSED to view Matt as acting unlike himself like we're SUPPOSED to see his new "costume" as awful and a bad idea. I'm very confident this is all going somewhere, and in theory I think it's a perfectly valid, interesting story path to explore. It's just that the timing's rotten that it's happening just as the Netflix series is launching and introducing a whole new set of potential readers to the more iconic version of the character not currently seen on the page. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| WilsonFisk wrote: | | As for Matt Murdock, I think Waid absolutely nailed his characterisation throughout Volume 3, and for much of Volume 4, too. With this current storyline, I agree, he seems to have gone off the deep-end and is acting totally unlike himself. But I'd also add that the characters around him are all saying exactly that within the story, so we're SUPPOSED to view Matt as acting unlike himself like we're SUPPOSED to see his new "costume" as awful and a bad idea. I'm very confident this is all going somewhere, and in theory I think it's a perfectly valid, interesting story path to explore. |
I love Waid's characterization of Matt as well. I love how impetuous Matt is now. In the heat of battle he throws caution to the wind. He truly lives up to his name now. I feel this is welcome after how reactive he was under Bendis and Brubaker's pens.
I loved all of Volume three except for the two Halloween issues. What I've seen among numerous problems in Volume 4, is the occurrence of powerful moments (ie. getting pummelled by Wakandan diplomats who know exactly how to counter his powers; the purple children bombarding him with depression he has been repressing), followed by him not learning and growing from those moments. That doesn't mean I want him to descend back into the misery of the Bendis era. I just want him to acknowledge some of the issues which he's avoiding.
Having said that, I'm not labeling Waid's tenure on the book "happy-go-lucky." Anybody on this board who has used this label (and there have been more than a few) I would guess don't actually read comic books, but rather just flip through them scanning the pictures. |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Anybody on this board who has used this label (and there have been more than a few) I would guess don't actually read comic books, but rather just flip through them scanning the pictures. |
You know, I was about to say this very thing of you as soon as you said "the misery of the Bendis era". |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Acerbus wrote: |
Hi there. Speaking of chest-slapping, paste-swilling idiocy...
As you may have noted, having copied and pasted verbatim from webster's like a junior high school student having their first argument... there are three acceptable definitions of the term.
Guess which definition fits what I did? A 'correspondence'. Not a comparison. Meaning a 'similarity of circumstance'.
Not of individuals, you leaning tower of intellect, you.
You're essentially arguing that if I said that both Winston Churchill and Adam West wore socks... that I just equated Adam West to Winston Churchill.
They both did the same thing. That doesn't make them even remotely similar as human beings, and no one at all claimed it did. So no. No one compared Waid to Liefeld. You plucked that from thin air yourself.
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Haha. That's ridiculous. When I pasted the definition in there I figured you'd try to cling pathetically to the second version. I didn't know how you would because you so obviously compared Waid and Liefield. For example:
| Quote: | The analog is valid insomuch as both men hopped on a trend. And raked in undeserved accolades for it.
And both men wore thin very quickly. |
The point you were making is the Waid is a bad writer like Liefield (who is widely regarded as a bad writer). You were comparing their individual qualities as bad writers. Or did you just pick Liefield by fluke?
Anyway, it's clear you haven't read Waid's stuff anyway and don't even have a clear grasp of past DD either. My money, based on your "witty" and overly complex insults that are so popular on the internet is that you're just here to troll. My advice is go pick up the book and read it. There are some good parts.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I think it's true that Waid went "all aboard the grim-and-gritty-sucks train" and brought it all to extreme and disastrous results.
What the ****. Is that even Daredevil? It looks and act like a badly written Riddler.
The kind of character for which you wait for a Batman to show up and punch in the face.
Also, someone said before that
| Quote: | | "the book has garnered it's support because the stores are well told and the readers recognize that." |
give me a break. "Bullseye in a jar becomes a criminal mastermind out of the blue", "Matt tells the world in court he's DD, including how his powers work because.... reasons", "Leapfrog ambushes Matt and Foggy from a pond in central park and there you have the deus ex machina", "matt is so under pressure because the serpent society is bad even though we barely see them do anything at all the whole storyarc", "Foggy has cancer nowadays many people face the sorrow of having cancer but still fight on how sad" |
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Acerbus
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 96
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
Haha. That's ridiculous. When I pasted the definition in there I figured you'd try to cling pathetically to the second version. I didn't know how you would because you so obviously compared Waid and Liefield. For example:
| Quote: | The analog is valid insomuch as both men hopped on a trend. And raked in undeserved accolades for it.
And both men wore thin very quickly. |
The point you were making is the Waid is a bad writer like Liefield (who is widely regarded as a bad writer). You were comparing their individual qualities as bad writers. Or did you just pick Liefield by fluke?
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'Hopped'.
'Raked'.
'Wore'.
Guess what those words are?
*Cue Sesame Street theme song*
Verbs!
Guess that they do, children?
They connote action!
Why, it's... it's almost as if the very quote you're clinging to as evidence of some imagined comparison between two people... is, in fact, comparing two like actions! Annihilating your entire argument - and proving mine - in the process.
Stop being pedantic. I know what I meant and so do you.
Look, you enjoy Waid's work.
I'm... laboring to understand why, given the issue of the comic this entire thread is dedicated to, but whatever. Your enjoyment of it isn't an affront to me personally.
What I take exception to is your perpetuation - and defense - of this all-encompassing comic media narrative of 'the peerless genius that is Mark Waid that single-handedly swooped in from a chandelelier and saved Daredevil!'
The characterizations are inconsistent, the art is... good, but hardly commensurate with the copious praise heaved upon it. Waid's original DD creations have proven utterly one-dimensional, and his interpretations of classic characters aren't far behind. The move back to San Francisco was just a repetition of a Bronze Age editorial move that is now widely regarded as a mistake - it has proven no less a mistake in Mark Waid's hands.
To answer your query: I picked Liefeld as an analog because he was an example of another mainstream creator who jumped on a trend... and reaped large financial rewards from it... only to establish a 'creative legacy' that proved to be built on quicksand. I'm not sure I'd go quite that far with Waid. He's written groundbreaking runs on other comics. But this run on Daredevil? Has aged like tepid milk.
Mark my words: That effect is only going to compound with interest as time progresses.
It's of its time.
With the public basking in the 'grimdark' afterglow of The Dark Knight and poised for disappointment at the hands of Dark Knight Rises, the skinny jeans syndicate were thirsting for a retro-romp. I can dig that. Daredevil: Yellow did that (I would argue, more effectively, as well).
But that's an approach suited for a 10-issue mini-series. Not two pointless cash-grab relaunches and a sustained writing stint that (like my post) seems to drag on and on in perpetuity. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hahaha. Nice try kid.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | I think it's true that Waid went "all aboard the grim-and-gritty-sucks train" and brought it all to extreme and disastrous results.
What the ****. Is that even Daredevil? It looks and act like a badly written Riddler.
The kind of character for which you wait for a Batman to show up and punch in the face.
Also, someone said before that
| Quote: | | "the book has garnered it's support because the stores are well told and the readers recognize that." |
give me a break. "Bullseye in a jar becomes a criminal mastermind out of the blue", "Matt tells the world in court he's DD, including how his powers work because.... reasons", "Leapfrog ambushes Matt and Foggy from a pond in central park and there you have the deus ex machina", "matt is so under pressure because the serpent society is bad even though we barely see them do anything at all the whole storyarc", "Foggy has cancer nowadays many people face the sorrow of having cancer but still fight on how sad" |
See,that's my issue with the series.I can handle a bad Daredevil story if I feel like I'm still reading about Matt Murdock but I don't see Matt in Waid's DD.Him revealing his secret to the court was beyond ooc as well as the courts not giving him any severe punishment.I just can't get with things like all the blind puns and the "hey it's a red Batman"type stuff.The tone of the series was never a problem for me even though I don't like ic.I just can't get with the way Matt Murdock is written.And the Foggys' got cancer thing hardly sums up the book being dark.Superman,Flash and Spider-Man have tragic stuff like this but I wouldn't call them dark and gritty.If you put it like that any book could be considered dark and gritty because every comic on the shelves deals with something bad now and again.Just my two cents. |
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beneverett
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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Acerbus wrote:
| Quote: | | With the public basking in the 'grimdark' afterglow of The Dark Knight and poised for disappointment at the hands of Dark Knight Rises, the skinny jeans syndicate were thirsting for a retro-romp. |
I could say that most of Mark Waid's writing could be described as "lighthearted", albeit with darker and more complex elements contained within their subtexts.
But still, it's probably the hipster thing - that's more logical.
This is the main problem with the DD backlash against Waid that I have here and elsewhere. It isn't that I don't like hearing it because I happen to enjoy the book, it's that so much of it is just so flat-out stupid.
I can go along with Daredevil24's complaint about uncharacteristic behavior and motivations, (even though I disagree) because that's something that they can provide examples of to defend their claim. Conversely, I can provide my own examples to defend my arguement. Perhaps then we could duscuss the effectiveness of a particuluar tonal shift over the other. We both might walk away with a new perspective on the character and the book. That kind of constructive criticism can be engaging and productive. Most of what I have come across just seems like a lot of whiny, knee-jerk vindictiveness. |
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beneverett
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Nov 2012
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| While I may disagree with many of the viewpoints expressed in this thread, none of my comments were or are meant to be taken personally. I'm sorry if anyone has taken them that way or have otherwise been upset by them. There's no need for things to get ugly. We're all DD fans here, that's what's important. |
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Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
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| Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like to say the same.Even though I don't agree with Waid's take on the character I'm not here to disrespect anybody.This is a time where every Daredevil fan should be happy.Netflix baby!!! |
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Darkdevil
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 331
Location: The Bright, Sunny South
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| I haven't undertaken my bi-monthly trip to my LCS yet, but WOW, after reading 9 pages of comments on the ramifications and meanings behind one red suit, I am SO looking forward to reading this issue now. |
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Naked Bat
Flying Blind
Joined: 11 Feb 2015
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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the last two pages have been interesting, and while I don't agree with everyone, I respect how most of you have been civil.
Acerbus should learn not to insult people though. It doesn't make you look smarter, it makes you look childish.
You have the right not to like Waid's work, of course. But pretending his work can be comapred to liefeld's work, just because both of them hopped on a trend is forgetting that Waid put a lof ot effort in his plots and character development. That still doesn't mean you have to like what he does with DD, but pretending his writing is comparable to liefeld's is not really credible.
I don't especially like Waid as a person, but that doesn't prevent me to like his writing, more often than not. On the other note, I don't care for Quesada as a person, I don't like his writing, but I think some of his art work is glorious. What he did in part of a hole is stunning for instance.
Let's not forget that although Waid's run is more light-hearted than what most writers did after miller, the plots still deal with dark stuffs. |
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