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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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 Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | RGdesigner wrote: | They will copy DC (like they've never done that before  ) |
In almost every case for the last 50+ years, it's been the other way around. |
Wait, what? Since when? Remember Identity Crisis/Identity Disk? That's just the high water mark in Marvel jumping on the DC train. I've always read way more Marvel than DC but even through that lens I can see that Marvel copies DC way more than the other way around. Like it or not DC takes way more risks and is much bolder in the stories they tell. I can't even think of a recent case of DC copying Marvel.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
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Ryu Murdock
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | I can't even think of a recent case of DC copying Marvel. |
DC's Flashpoint is Marvel's House of M. If you think me wrong, it is actually you who is wrong. Six years will not be enough to make people forget House of M. Flashpoint was very House of M-ish from Pandora who is a bit Scarlet Witch-y and the involvement of Flash reminds me of Quicksilver's involvement in House of M.
And I am sure there are others. But whether DC copies Marvel or Marvel copies DC don't really matter to me, so long as they give us good stories.
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Wait, what? Since when? Remember Identity Crisis/Identity Disk? That's just the high water mark in Marvel jumping on the DC train. I've always read way more Marvel than DC but even through that lens I can see that Marvel copies DC way more than the other way around. Like it or not DC takes way more risks and is much bolder in the stories they tell. |
Identity Crisis and Identity Disc were two major events that were published only 2 months apart--unless there was behind-the-scenes espionage there's no copying there.
There is a long history of the companies copying one another and others, and, it must be added, this has been to the benefit of we, the readers. The Doom Patrol and the X-Men were created more-or-less simultaneously then pubished in that order. I believe there was espionage in that case, but there's no real evidence for that outside of the extreme unlikelihood of it being a coincidence (the later Vision/Red Tornado thing is also hard to buy as a coincidence, though not the Whirlwind/Red Tornado clipping). Doom Patrol was a damn good book. The X-Men was a lot better book.
More to the point, Doom Patrol was a conscious effort to try to duplicate what Marvel had been doing, something DC has continued to try to do ever since. The idea of one's entire run of books as a single story with line-wide continuity was a Marvel innovation: the Marvel Universe. Heroes at DC sometimes crossed over, and there were projects like the Justice League (which Marvel aped to create the Avengers), but there wasn't even internal continuity in DC's books at the time, until they started to copy Marvel. Issue-length tales, continuing stories that ran serially--all things Marvel pioneered and DC copied. In the very late '60s and early '70s, DC began its first effort to "modernize" its major characters, or, to put it more accurately, to Marvelize them. The Marvelesque reboots of Batman, Wonder Woman, the Green Lantern and Green Arrow, Supergirl, Superman etc. were often even carried out by talent imported from Marvel. The dynamic art Jack Kirby had unleashed during his prime years at Marvel became the tip of an artistic iceberg the company pioneered and that became the thing everyone wanted to copy in some way. Compare it to, for example, the awful "picture-book" artwork Mort Weisinger was imposing on the Superman books in the '60s.
In the '80s, DC launched the first Crisis, and again, the revamps of the major characters were aimed at Marvelizing them, and again, a contingent of former Marvel talent was put to the task (Byrne, Miller, Perez, etc.).
When it comes to characters and concepts over the years, there's plenty of crossbreeding. DC's Swamp Thing was a ripoff of Marvel's Man Thing (much later, Alan Moore made him even more so); the Brave & the Bold as a Batman team-up book led to Marvel Team-Up and Marvel Two-In-One, which then produced DC Comics Presents; Moon Knight--or at least Moon Knight as Moon Knight--is the Batman; the "New" Teen Titans were an effort to get at the X-Men's audience; the Lizard became Killer Croc; Iron Man yielded Steel; SHIELD and the Hellfire Club were copied into Checkmate; the Winter Soldier yielded the the Jason Todd Red Hood; Marvel Zombies yielded DC's Blackest Night; and so on. DC, however, is the company that more typically tries to be like Marvel. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Identity Disk was not a major event was clearly a sad attempt by Marvel to piggy back on DC's much bigger event.
The rest of your post just illustrates that there's been lots of back and forth over the decades. The conclusion that DC has copied Marvel more is silly (Thanos anyone?).
All I'm saying is that to me, lately, Marvel is largely devoid of original ideas.
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JC
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Ryu Murdock wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | I can't even think of a recent case of DC copying Marvel. |
DC's Flashpoint is Marvel's House of M. If you think me wrong, it is actually you who is wrong. Six years will not be enough to make people forget House of M. Flashpoint was very House of M-ish from Pandora who is a bit Scarlet Witch-y and the involvement of Flash reminds me of Quicksilver's involvement in House of M.
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Hahaha. I love how confidently you state that I am wrong and that you are right and then immediately say something as ridiculous as DC using the Flash because Marvel had a story that used Quicksilver.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Ryu Murdock
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Hahaha. I love how confidently you state that I am wrong and that you are right and then immediately say something as ridiculous as DC using the Flash because Marvel had a story that used Quicksilver. |
I meant you were wrong about your statement -- "I can't even think of a recent case of DC copying Marvel.". I did mean to come out all snarky. I do see you raised valid points.
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Kuljit Mithra
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1530
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Another press release from Marvel:
The LAST DAYS Begin This May!
'Loki: Agent of Asgard', 'Magneto' & 'Captain America & The Mighty Avengers' Begin Their LAST DAYS Story Arcs!
New York, NY—January 28th, 2015— The skies fracture. The ground trembles. The end of all they know is coming. Heroes, Gods of Mischief and Masters of Magnetism who have faced annihilation more times than they could count and walked away. Only this time, there is no walking away. Today, Marvel is pleased to present the first issues of three blockbuster LAST DAYS stories, leading in to the highly-anticipated Secret Wars. Beginning in May, be there as your favorite Marvel heroes face their final hours, and the obliteration of the Marvel Universe!
First, Al Ewing and Luke Ross bring you a story of the people who faced the end of the world together, shoulder to shoulder in the face of destruction in CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE MIGHTY AVENGERS #8. Some of them wore costumes, and some of them didn’t. Some of them had super-human powers, and all some had were each other. Yet they were all Mighty Avengers in the end. And this is how they spent their last day.
Then, ask yourself – what will your legacy be when it’s all over? Cullen Bunn and Javi Fernandez have the answers in MAGNETO #18. The Mutant Master of Magnetism has learned his time is all but spent. A life of struggle and torment brought to a cataclysmic end at the destruction of all things. With everything he’s fought for his whole life brought to its unavoidable ending, how will he cope? Will he celebrate his legacy – or be tormented by it?
Finally, the end of the Marvel Universe extends into Asgard and beyond as all the Ten Realms face their final hours in LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD #14. Al Ewing and Lee Garbett bring you the curtain call of the God of Mischief. Ancient enemies march on Asgardia seeking their final vengeance – including King Loki, meaner, madder and more dangerous than before. Where is our Loki? What tragedy has befallen him, here at the end?
Before Secret Wars can begin, the Marvel Universe must end. And it all starts this May as the LAST DAYS story arcs begin in Captain America & the Mighty Avengers #8, Loki: Agent of Asgard #14, and Magneto #18!
CAPTAIN AMERICA & THE MIGHTY AVENGERS #8
Written by AL EWING
Art & Cover by LUKE ROSS
On Sale in May!
MAGNETO #18
Written by CULLEN BUNN
Art by JAVI FERNANDEZ
Cover by DAVID YARDIN
On Sale in May!
LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD #14
Written by AL EWING
Art & Cover by LEE GARBETT
On Sale in May!
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Kuljit Mithra
www.manwithoutfear.com |
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Ryu Murdock
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Cainta Rizal, Philippines
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:37 am Post subject: |
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That's still a little vague. What does different universe mean for what's happening to the characters? If Karen Page is alive in this new universe, is that a reboot if Matt still experienced her death? There's a lot of unanswered questions, even if Marvel isn't going full New 52s (although I suspect Crisis on Infinite Earths is the comparison everyone has anyway).
However, I do agree with the point that Marvel does small reboots all the time. More accurately, they do retcons, which, when combined with character revivals, help shake up and restore that character's everyday life. But a giant shakeup is still way more difficult to handle. Even a giant shakeup or reset on a single character (One More Day) can be a disaster.
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | | That's still a little vague. What does different universe mean for what's happening to the characters? If Karen Page is alive in this new universe, is that a reboot if Matt still experienced her death?. |
From what I read, the core of the character will remain the same. Captain America will still be a WW II vet, Matt Murdock will still be a lawyer with a soft spot for the downtrodden. Peter Parker will be a nerdy guy that gets bitten by a radioactive spider. All other aspects of the mythos of the characters will be reset to free a writer up from 50+ years of continuity. I usually avoid the big event comic stories like the plague, but this one has me a little excited at the prospect of what it can become. Don't screw this up Marvel! |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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That's a complete reboot - something that article was denying was occurring. I'm just trying to understand the article.
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| It may just be semantics then. To me, a complete reboot would include significant changes to the characters and their origins. Not just the removal of continuity. From what I understand about the D.C. reboot, it invalidated the Golden Age. To me, that's considerably different than what Marvel has in play. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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It doesn't have to be. Reboot is just a reset of the continuity more than anything else.
Batman Begins is a reboot from the Tim Burton Batman. The only real significant difference between the two is Joe Chill vs. Joker killing Batman's parents.
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
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I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| You asked if Matt would remember the death of Karen if she was brought back. I answered your question. If you want to call that a hard reboot, then call it that. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:47 am Post subject: |
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I do.
But what I asked was what the article meant by "different universe." The rest were examples to illustrate my point.
_________________
Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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