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Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
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Nightwing2001
Flying Blind
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got to also say that peoples arguments that the tone of Daredevil can only be "dark" is strange to me as well. That argument makes as much sense as saying that Spider man stories can only be "bright and cheery" Ever read "The Death of Jean DeWolff" or "Kraven's Last Hunt"? Both amazing (no pun intended) Spider man stories that just happen to be super dark as hell. No cheeriness there. So since these kind of Spidey tales follow a different take than usual they should not be counted as the proper way to do the character? That makes about as much sense as what you are saying about DD. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Nightwing2001 wrote: | | I just wanted to bring something up about the sales that I haven't seen anyone address yet and that is I think the slow decline in Daredevil's sales (and sales of most comics in general) can also be attributed to the fact a lot of comic buyers are now into waiting for trades instead of buying monthlies. I think this is probably a lot more of a realistic reason to do with this than some kind of "this writer is a cancer and that's why the sales are slipping" conspiracy theory. |
Well, I was arguing that sales of Daredevil are pretty much just indicative of market forces as a whole. But I wanted to nail down why sales were claimed to be relevant before I can point out how they pretty much aren't.
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| WilsonFisk wrote: | | jriddle wrote: | lol. Mike, I quote the stuff to which I'm responding. That particular bit was in response to the assertion that Waid had enjoyed "the most popularity from the readership that the book has had in some time," combined with the suggestion that Brubaker was underrated. Brubaker--like every previous DD writer except Kelly--sold better than Waid.
And I didn't bring up the sales data earlier, Jonny_Anonymous did. I merely brought in some hard numbers to show he was correct. |
I still don't see what actual point you're making with the sales, though. How many people are reading the book and how popular the book is with those who are reading it are two different points, so bringing up the book's sales isn't really addressing that. |
If you're going to present "popularity" as some sort of magical and unmeasurable concept totally separate and apart from sales--which is what you're doing--there's no way to address that. You're suggesting that if DD's sales dropped to five people but those five really, really loved it, it could be said to be more "popular" than back when it had 50,000 readers who only sort of loved it. While the reason for bringing up sales in this thread is obvious to anyone who reads it, you are spectacularly lacking anything remotely resembling a valid point here.
| WilsonFisk wrote: | | Either you're using the point that Waid's sales are lower than other writers to back up your statement about Waid being a cancer on the title - in which case I could use the same rationale to argue that Brubaker was a cancer because he sold less than Bendis, and Bendis was a cancer because he sold less than Kevin Smith - or as you suggested earlier the sales are utterly irrelevant and you have decreed that Waid and Samnee are a cancer on Daredevil regardless of what sales are, in which case it seems rather pointless to bring it up. |
The reason sales were raised--by another poster, not by me--is plain to anyone who has read the thread; it was plain the first time around and has been explained a few times since. |
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Mike Murdock
Golden Age
Joined: 08 Sep 2014
Posts: 1750
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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But sales are also a useless measurement unless they're controlled for market trends. In other words, the only number that matters is relative Daredevil sales numbers above or below what the market would predict based on the sales of other comics. The folks over at Fivethirtyeight.com could probably calculate something like that, so it can be done, but I doubt they'd bother for something like this.
Popularity, might be subjective and impossible to respond to, but it's certain the response isn't to point to context-less sales numbers.
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Matt Murdock's cooler twin brother
Not sure what to read next? Check out the Book Club for some ideas!
I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
Thomas More - A Man for All Seasons |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jriddle wrote: | | If you're going to present "popularity" as some sort of magical and unmeasurable concept totally separate and apart from sales--which is what you're doing--there's no way to address that. You're suggesting that if DD's sales dropped to five people but those five really, really loved it, it could be said to be more "popular" than back when it had 50,000 readers who only sort of loved it. While the reason for bringing up sales in this thread is obvious to anyone who reads it, you are spectacularly lacking anything remotely resembling a valid point here. |
Popularity is measurable by critical response to the series, and by awards the series has won and been nominated for, and by the overwhelmingly positive response from the vast majority of readers on websites and social media. I've pointed this out repeatedly, but you seem to be taking the "LALALALA IIIII'M NOT LIIIIISTENIIIIIIING!" approach to responding to it. |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Murdock wrote: | But sales are also a useless measurement unless they're controlled for market trends. In other words, the only number that matters is relative Daredevil sales numbers above or below what the market would predict based on the sales of other comics. The folks over at Fivethirtyeight.com could probably calculate something like that, so it can be done, but I doubt they'd bother for something like this.
Popularity, might be subjective and impossible to respond to, but it's certain the response isn't to point to context-less sales numbers. |
Well said. Here again is a sales chart of DAREDEVIL sales in recent years:
http://www.manwithoutfear.com/jpgs/ddsales.jpg
On the surface, it could be easy to look at Waid's numbers being lower and use that as an argument that his run is less popular or whatever. But like you say, really the only way to draw anything from sales is to have a control and to compare it against general sales trends through the years.
The one thing you can use from sales figures to speculate on the popularity of a book isn't reader numbers, but reader retention. All books lose readers from month to month, that's just the reality of serialised fiction. But still, if you wanted to draw any kind of spurious indication of merit from individual sales figures, one possible way to do it would be to look at just how many readers a title lost over the duration of a reader's run. The idea being that the more that kept reading, the more of that readership was enjoying the book enough to keep on buying it. For the purposes of this, we cut out issue #1s, and anniversary issues like #100, which always see a spike from speculator buys. So let's take a look at three creators and what their reader retention looked like:
- Brian Michael Bendis had a high-point in his run of around 66,000 readers, and by his low-point he was at about 43,000, indicating that he lost around 23,000 readers.
- Ed Brubaker had a high-point of about 55,000 readers, and a low-point of around 39,000, indicating that he lost around 16,000 readers.
- Mark Waid had a high-point of about 46,000 readers, and a low-point of around 32,000, indicating that he lost around 14,000 readers, at least by the point Volume 3 ended, I don't knw what Volume 4 sales have looked like.
It's not an exact science, especially when you consider sales numbers come from retailers rather than directly from readers. But we must also assume that retailer order numbers are broadly based on what volume readers in their respective shops are purchasing these books, and so it could be seen as a rough projection of what percentage of the existing readership are reacting positively to the run enough to keep reading. |
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admiralpetty
Flying Blind
Joined: 22 Jun 2014
Posts: 48
Location: Kalispell, MT
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| WilsonFisk wrote: | | Popularity is measurable by critical response to the series, and by awards the series has won and been nominated for, and by the overwhelmingly positive response from the vast majority of readers on websites and social media. I've pointed this out repeatedly, but you seem to be taking the "LALALALA IIIII'M NOT LIIIIISTENIIIIIIING!" approach to responding to it. |
This is what he pretty much always does when someone doesn't agree with him. I sometimes wonder if he may secretly be the comic book guy from The Simpsons 
I have personally enjoyed Waid's run so far, I'm not as big on it as some critics and fans seem to be, but I find it very enjoyable nonetheless. I appreciate the fact that he is telling dark stories without the need to force feed us the fact that DD is a GRIM and GRITTY character. My favorite run will always be Frank Miller's run, which established the grittier vibe to the stories, but it always balanced it with humorous moments like the Stiltman issue or the numerous times DD gets the better of Turk.
I also really enjoyed Bendis' run on the book though, seriously good stuff, but by the end of Brubaker's run, I was pretty worn out from the darkness(his run started out great, but the second half didn't live up to the expectations I generally have for a writer I love like Brubaker). I think many reader's felt the same way, hence the terrible reception of Diggle's run(among other issues). I'm actually curious as to what Diggle's take on DD would have been had Brubaker's run not ended the way it did. I didn't care for Shadowland, but I have read a number of Diggle's other stories for different characters and found them quite enjoyable.
Also, I have to agree on the fact that sales is hardly a good judge of the quality of a book(especially when so many crappy titles have flourished through the years just because they have big name characters on the cover). Going by that barometer in other areas of media, films like the Twilight series and the numerous boy bands through the years would have to be considered quality entertainment. Sometimes good things sell a lot and sometimes they don't, and the reverse is true for bad things as well.
As for Waid's run ending, I'm okay with it. I'd rather he end it when feels he should, rather than have him continue when he really doesn't have much more to say on a character. I hope the next writer marries some of the things Waid has done with some of the more noirish elements of previous runs, but does it in an original way of course. |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| WilsonFisk wrote: | | jriddle wrote: | | If you're going to present "popularity" as some sort of magical and unmeasurable concept totally separate and apart from sales--which is what you're doing--there's no way to address that. You're suggesting that if DD's sales dropped to five people but those five really, really loved it, it could be said to be more "popular" than back when it had 50,000 readers who only sort of loved it. While the reason for bringing up sales in this thread is obvious to anyone who reads it, you are spectacularly lacking anything remotely resembling a valid point here. |
Popularity is measurable by critical response to the series, and by awards the series has won and been nominated for, and by the overwhelmingly positive response from the vast majority of readers on websites and social media. I've pointed this out repeatedly |
...and after all that huff and bluster, sales are still the concrete measure of popularity, just as they were before all that huff and bluster began. And no, there's no way around that, and no, there's no way to create any other measure of popularity. You're just publicly embarrassing yourself by insisting otherwise. |
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jriddle
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 19 May 2011
Posts: 129
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| admiralpetty wrote: | | Also, I have to agree on the fact that sales is hardly a good judge of the quality of a book(especially when so many crappy titles have flourished through the years just because they have big name characters on the cover). Going by that barometer in other areas of media, films like the Twilight series and the numerous boy bands through the years would have to be considered quality entertainment. Sometimes good things sell a lot and sometimes they don't, and the reverse is true for bad things as well. |
All sales measure is popularity. The insistence that it doesn't measure that is comical. |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:57 am Post subject: |
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That whooshing sound you might hear is the sound of all the points jriddle finds too scary and challenging and wants to pretend don't exist soaring over his head.
"Most critics think I'm wrong about Mark Waid's DAREDEVIL?" WHOOSH!
"Most DAREDEVIL readers think I'm wrong about Mark Waid's DAREDEVIL?" WHOOSH!
"Several people have now demonstrated how little out-of-context sales charts for comics actually mean as a barometer for popularity?" WHOOSH!
"And if the sales show us anything, it's actually that Mark Waid has generally lost LESS readers over his run than Smith, Bendis or Brubaker did over theirs?" WHOOSH!
The one single thing you seem to be clinging onto in this argument like a drowning man clinging onto a raft, is this notion of "the book selling lower = it's not popular." And if pure box office alone, outside any sales trend context or outside any critical merit or positive word-of-mouth, is your SOLE measure of popularity, then I guess TWILIGHT and TRANSFORMERS are also among the most popular films of all time, and Rob Liefeld is also one of the most popular comic artists of all time. |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| But really, by this point I feel like my claims about the popularity and acclaim of Mark Waid's run have been robustly defended, over several pages. Your niggling over the specific wording of my comments over multiple pages has thus far done a great job of distracting from it, but thus far you've not said anything to justify or back up YOUR claim that Mark Waid is a "cancer" on the title. So let's hear your reasoning for THAT, which seems by all accounts a pretty ridiculous claim. |
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train
Guardian Devil
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 659
Location: Hell's Pantry
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Jriddle is a one trick pony. Stop feeding the troll and he will go away. As far as the next writer, I wouldn't mind seeing Rick Remender on the book. He is quickly becoming one of my favorite writers. His book Black Science is near the top of my list right now. His relaunch of Captain America was a decent read last month too. He has several books going right now, so it's most likely a long shot that would be available.... |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| train wrote: | | Jriddle is a one trick pony. Stop feeding the troll and he will go away. As far as the next writer, I wouldn't mind seeing Rick Remender on the book. He is quickly becoming one of my favorite writers. His book Black Science is near the top of my list right now. His relaunch of Captain America was a decent read last month too. He has several books going right now, so it's most likely a long shot that would be available.... |
Everyone seems to praise BLACK SCIENCE, but I actually think DEADLY CLASS might be Remender's best book. Really good title.
If we're going for established Marvel writers, I'd maybe be inclined to pick someone like Jason Aaron or Charles Soule over Rick Remender, though I wouldn't object to Remender either. But they all have the shared problem of being busy with multiple projects.
Something else to consider is that, this could be more than just Waid and Samnee's DAREDEVIL run ending. It seems like the timing of the ending will tie right into the latest SECRET WAR, where the latest cryptic marketing hints suggest that Marvel might be "cancelling" EVERYTHING... to prep for a relaunch/soft reboot of their whole line after the event. |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| WilsonFisk wrote: | | train wrote: | | Jriddle is a one trick pony. Stop feeding the troll and he will go away. As far as the next writer, I wouldn't mind seeing Rick Remender on the book. He is quickly becoming one of my favorite writers. His book Black Science is near the top of my list right now. His relaunch of Captain America was a decent read last month too. He has several books going right now, so it's most likely a long shot that would be available.... |
Everyone seems to praise BLACK SCIENCE, but I actually think DEADLY CLASS might be Remender's best book. Really good title.
If we're going for established Marvel writers, I'd maybe be inclined to pick someone like Jason Aaron or Charles Soule over Rick Remender, though I wouldn't object to Remender either. But they all have the shared problem of being busy with multiple projects. |
I'm not a huge Remender fan, having only read some of his Avengers and Captain America work and found them both to be missed opportunities. But who am I kidding? I'll give anyone a shot at writing Daredevil.
| WilsonFisk wrote: | | Something else to consider is that, this could be more than just Waid and Samnee's DAREDEVIL run ending. It seems like the timing of the ending will tie right into the latest SECRET WAR, where the latest cryptic marketing hints suggest that Marvel might be "cancelling" EVERYTHING... to prep for a relaunch/soft reboot of their whole line after the event. |
If that's true, that's very frustrating news. |
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WilsonFisk
Flying Blind
Joined: 04 Nov 2014
Posts: 41
Location: Scotland
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