|
Daredevil Message Board
The Board Without Fear!
|
The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
 Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:19 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm invested in the idea that this is a universe where people act like people. For that, all of the characters have to act, believably, like people in their positions. |
I _wish_ people acted like people in their position, in real life. Turns out they don't, and so I don't expect a comic to portray them differently. Unless it's a comic aimed at kids with anthropomorphic puppies and kittens living in an idealized world. |
Isn't that the plot of WE3?
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| More or less. In fact I think Katerine should buy it. She will like it a lot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nightwing2001
Flying Blind
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Posts: 94
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I thought Foggy wasn't out of character at all there. To me it just seemed like Foggy had been pushed to a breaking point with his relationship with Matt and he couldn't take it anymore. Maybe what he said was wrong or what he did was wrong too, but at that moment in time he was just so upset and maybe said some things that later on he would have regretted when he felt better. Add on the stress of just finding out you have cancer and maybe he was just ready to crack. As someone said above I remember an old issue, #225 I believe, where Foggy lost it with Matt too and pretty much broke off their relationship there as well.
As for the DA, well in a perfect world people in positions of power wouldn't abuse that power but unfortunetly in the real world a lot of them do. Now if the DD comic always had people in positions like law and government always shown as perfect shining beings it wouldn't be a very realistic take on peoples characters now would it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Daredevil24
Humanity's Fathom
Joined: 06 Apr 2011
Posts: 367
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I didn't Find Foggy's behavior out of character but I do think it was a little over the top |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Darediva
Wake Up
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1208
Location: Hell's Kitchen South, Arkansas, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
*Sits back*
*Munches popcorn*
Welcome to the forum, Katerine.
_________________
Alice
Those who throw dirt merely lose ground. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi everyone,
I apologize for taking so long to reply. Aside from work, there was company, and then I wanted to take some time to think about this, before replying. And then, I got totally wrapped up in other fandoms for quite a while.  Anyway, I'm sorry about coming in so late and reviving an old thread, but I finally have a chance to respond.
I'll respond to everybody's points about the actual TPB in a later post. For this post, I really want to address what I think is the big issue in the debate between myself and james.
James, I think we're still talking at cross purposes, because we still don't really understand each other. For my part, I'm not understanding your POV because you've yet to answer this question:
Why do you read Daredevil? That is, on the most fundamental level you can think of, what do you get out of reading it? Nobody does anything if they don't get anything out of it (even pure altruism is based on the good feeling that altruism provides, or the good feeling that comes from doing what you feel is a duty). So you must get something out of it. What is it?
The reason I keep asking this is, you seem to think there's something fundamentally wrong with wanting to become immersed in another world and in the lives of its characters. (At least, that's what I think you mean, when you say:
| Quote: | The thing is that none of these characters are real. It's all made up. The idea that they should "act like themselves" is odd given that they have no self to act like. I know you might point out that there's a consistency built up over the years. But that's the crazy thing. In comics there isn't. Bendis' Matt is different than Miller's which is different than Nocenti's. Do you really think Foggy has been presented in an entirely consistent way up to now? Of course he hasn't.
Anyway, to each his own but I think you're focusing on the wrong things. |
)
But escaping into another world, through immersion, is the goal of all fantasy escapism, from Harry Potter and A Song of Ice and Fire and Lord of the Rings, to Star Trek and Star Wars, to Avatar: The Last Airbender. "A work created with the goal of completely immersing its readers in a world, and characters' lives, that are very different from ours," is pretty-much the definition of fantasy escapism.
And "superhero comics" is part of the genre of fantasy escapism.
And Daredevil is a superhero comic.
So... if immersion into another world and fictional (and therefore safe) people's lives, is not what you get out of reading Daredevil comics, I have a hard time understanding what is. Hence the question.
And if immersion is what you get out of reading the comics, then... well, it'll help me to know that.  Then we can stop talking at cross purposes, and just focus on why such-and-such does not interfere with your ability to immerse, but it does interfere with mine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: |
I'm invested in the idea that this is a universe where people act like people. For that, all of the characters have to act, believably, like people in their positions. |
I _wish_ people acted like people in their position, in real life. Turns out they don't, and so I don't expect a comic to portray them differently. Unless it's a comic aimed at kids with anthropomorphic puppies and kittens living in an idealized world. |
| Nightwing2001 wrote: | | As for the DA, well in a perfect world people in positions of power wouldn't abuse that power but unfortunetly in the real world a lot of them do. Now if the DD comic always had people in positions like law and government always shown as perfect shining beings it wouldn't be a very realistic take on peoples characters now would it? |
In retrospect, I agree. I think, at the time... it wasn't so much that I didn't think it could happen that way, as... something about it just struck me as very contrived, at the time.
And it still does, really... when all you've seen of a person is this one scene, and this one scene is of a person who has a job to do, ignoring their duties (and the DA most definitely was ignoring his duties... he has a duty to pay at least some attention when somebody says there might be a threat to the public welfare), that seems very shallow and two-dimensional and lazy. It just looked like Wade didn't care enough to give this character some actual motivation.
What really bugged me about it, was that I could easily see a way that Waid could have achieved the same end result (Kirsten's concern not being followed up on, so she has to go through her own channels), while still making the DA somebody whose POV we could understand. It's the same scenario I painted in the OP... and it would have taken maybe one more panel.
I think I mentioned this before, but I think a big part of my issue with the DA scene is just that I was reading this book while taking a brief break from marathon-reading the entire ASOIAF series. I was spoiled. If anybody here has read ASOIAF, they know what I'm talking about; EVERYBODY is fleshed out and has real motivations, even the minor characters. All 1,975 of them (no exaggeration - that's actually how many characters there are). And the characters always drive the plot, not the other way around, which is as it should be.
Anyway, you're right - it's not totally unrealistic that a DA would act that way. But it bugged me to see that this is his only behavior that we see. He's a DA. He represents the law. He represents justice. The same justice that Matt has always needed to believe in, even though recent (since Bendis) events have tested his belief so much.
| Nightwing2001 wrote: | | I thought Foggy wasn't out of character at all there. To me it just seemed like Foggy had been pushed to a breaking point with his relationship with Matt and he couldn't take it anymore. Maybe what he said was wrong or what he did was wrong too, but at that moment in time he was just so upset and maybe said some things that later on he would have regretted when he felt better. Add on the stress of just finding out you have cancer and maybe he was just ready to crack. As someone said above I remember an old issue, #225 I believe, where Foggy lost it with Matt too and pretty much broke off their relationship there as well. |
Hm. I think what really got me about this is that I want to see Foggy as a true friend, and as a good guy. I really, really, really do. Because he's one of the few people in that universe that could generally be relied on to be a good friend and a good guy.
I don't have a problem with Foggy thinking that Matt had gone completely crazy and desperately needed help. I don't have a problem with him being angry. I don't even have a problem with him thinking that Matt needs to be stopped. All of that follows logically. I do have a problem with him blaming Matt for needing help. That's not something that a good friend, or a good guy, does.
I think my reaction was mostly about the way I see Daredevil as a whole. I asked james in my last post why he reads Daredevil. Well, on a somewhat-less fundamental level, for my part, I read it because I'm in love with the character. In a weird way, he represents hope. Hope that, just because somebody is going through things and has problems, that does not mean that they are not a good person and can't someday recover who he used to be, and the things he used to believe in.
James said in an earlier post that I clearly had not read the comics, because I said that DD believes in the law. But I have read the comics, every single one that I can get my hands on. From the silver age comics with the bizarre dialogue, to Miller's run, to Nocenti's run, to Born Again, and through Bendis and Brubaker and now Waid. And right up until Bendis' run, Matt has always struck me as somebody who believes in justice. Who believes that nobody should ever be helpless, either in the face of criminals or bullies, or in the face of the legal system.
And then, in Bendis' run, he lost that, because of life happening to him. Shortly after Karen's murder, he was suddenly robbed of the secret identity that he needed to rest from being "the man without fear." And suddenly he was forced to both lie at every turn, while presenting a fearless face to all of his enemies, without a chance to take a breath. And this was because of the actions of the people he'd sworn to protect, as well as the FBI he'd trusted. His life got turned upside-down. Then Foggy got stabbed, and Milla got poisoned and rendered permanently insane.
When this happened, over time, he lost his belief in justice, along with his sanity. And he's been trying to get both things back ever since.
And he's doing it. Slowly, and life keeps getting in the way, but he's doing it. Slowly, he's remembering who he used to be. For example, he always remembered that it was wrong for him to kill his enemies, but I think for a long time, he didn't remember why it was wrong... just that it was wrong. But now, I think he's starting to remember why. He's starting to understand life again, and to appreciate the good things.
That's why I say that, in a weird way, DD represents hope. I'm going to take a moment to talk about myself... hope that's ok... I've struggled with depression for most of my adult life. And in recent years, especially right around (ironically) the time of Bendis' run, it took a turn for the worse. Everything I ever did wrong in my life was constantly in the back of my mind. And then, suddenly, I couldn't hold a thought in my head. I couldn't compose a rational sentence. One of my biggest joys in life... doing what I'm doing right now and posting on the Internet... was lost because I couldn't make sense of anything. It was... scary. Really scary. Still is.
So in a way, DD is inspirational to me. I see him overcoming obstacles, both inside and outside, that are so much bigger than mine, it isn't even funny. And now, at least up until V4 (which is as far as I've read so far in Wade's run), he's even getting better. Things are making sense to him again. It's hopeful.
So when I saw Foggy acting like... that... I admit I took it a bit personally. Matt's already so alone. He doesn't need his one friend abandoning him as well. :\
Plus... yeah. I still think it's out of character for Foggy. The guy stuck by Matt during the whole Bendis run. He stood by Matt through jail. He stood by Matt after getting stabbed and almost dying. He sees a skull in a desk and suddenly he wants Matt out of his life? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Katerine wrote: |
Why do you read Daredevil? That is, on the most fundamental level you can think of, what do you get out of reading it? Nobody does anything if they don't get anything out of it (even pure altruism is based on the good feeling that altruism provides, or the good feeling that comes from doing what you feel is a duty). So you must get something out of it. What is it?
|
We are talking at cross purposes like crazy. I think the easiest way to explain my view of comics and how it differs from yours is to explain my bookshelf. I stopped buying floppies just over a decade ago. Since then it's been TPBs, Hardcovers or digital. I keep all of my collected versions in a bookcase organized by author, not title. It looks a little funny because the Daredevils are all over the place and out of order. There are chunks of Batman here and there and the X-Men (although they exist for the most part in a massive Claremont chuck) dip down to Morrison and back up to Ellis. So why organize my books this way? Because I follow creators, not characters (with ONE exception that I'll discuss below). I enjoy the art of comic writing and I enjoy reading the work of good writers. I have my favorites and will basically buy whatever they write. If they happen to be writing a series I have a childhood fondness for, all the better.
But it is a childhood fondness. I think there's something to be said for having a favorite character or a favorite world but, in the end, it's kinda a scam. Daredevil has lots of cool characteristics and I think he is a very good template that writers can start with to write cool stories but blindly following a character is dumb. Why? Because half way through Playing to the Camera, no matter how much you love DD, you get the feeling that you really don't want to be reading this and you're really wasting your time. When a bad writer writes a good character the results are bad. So, again, it's dumb to follow characters, not creators.
And this is where I admit that the ONE exception for me is Daredevil and that I am therefore dumb. I come on to books when a writer I like does and I leave when they leave - except with Daredevil. Daredevil was my first favorite hero and I grew up reading it. It's had a huge impact on my life and so for purely sentimental reasons I can't bear to stop collecting it. That said, I still skip the terrible mini-series that come out and I didn't buy Vision Quest and when push comes to shove I know that everything I THINK I learned from DD growing up, I actually learned from Ann Nocenti.
So I read DD for two reasons. When a good writer is writing it I read it for the artful writing. When a bad writer is writing it I read it because I am dumb.
| Quote: |
But escaping into another world, through immersion, is the goal of all fantasy escapism, from Harry Potter and A Song of Ice and Fire and Lord of the Rings, to Star Trek and Star Wars, to Avatar: The Last Airbender. "A work created with the goal of completely immersing its readers in a world, and characters' lives, that are very different from ours," is pretty-much the definition of fantasy escapism.
And "superhero comics" is part of the genre of fantasy escapism.
And Daredevil is a superhero comic.
|
Yeah, that's all just plain wrong. Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek and Star Wars are about SO MUCH MORE than just escaping (I don't know the others very well). If you're using them just to escape and feel happy then you're missing a tonne.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| james castle wrote: | | Katerine wrote: |
Why do you read Daredevil? That is, on the most fundamental level you can think of, what do you get out of reading it? Nobody does anything if they don't get anything out of it (even pure altruism is based on the good feeling that altruism provides, or the good feeling that comes from doing what you feel is a duty). So you must get something out of it. What is it?
|
We are talking at cross purposes like crazy. I think the easiest way to explain my view of comics and how it differs from yours is to explain my bookshelf. I stopped buying floppies just over a decade ago. Since then it's been TPBs, Hardcovers or digital. I keep all of my collected versions in a bookcase organized by author, not title. It looks a little funny because the Daredevils are all over the place and out of order. There are chunks of Batman here and there and the X-Men (although they exist for the most part in a massive Claremont chuck) dip down to Morrison and back up to Ellis. So why organize my books this way? Because I follow creators, not characters (with ONE exception that I'll discuss below). I enjoy the art of comic writing and I enjoy reading the work of good writers. I have my favorites and will basically buy whatever they write. If they happen to be writing a series I have a childhood fondness for, all the better.
But it is a childhood fondness. I think there's something to be said for having a favorite character or a favorite world but, in the end, it's kinda a scam. Daredevil has lots of cool characteristics and I think he is a very good template that writers can start with to write cool stories but blindly following a character is dumb. Why? Because half way through Playing to the Camera, no matter how much you love DD, you get the feeling that you really don't want to be reading this and you're really wasting your time. When a bad writer writes a good character the results are bad. So, again, it's dumb to follow characters, not creators.
And this is where I admit that the ONE exception for me is Daredevil and that I am therefore dumb. I come on to books when a writer I like does and I leave when they leave - except with Daredevil. Daredevil was my first favorite hero and I grew up reading it. It's had a huge impact on my life and so for purely sentimental reasons I can't bear to stop collecting it. That said, I still skip the terrible mini-series that come out and I didn't buy Vision Quest and when push comes to shove I know that everything I THINK I learned from DD growing up, I actually learned from Ann Nocenti.
So I read DD for two reasons. When a good writer is writing it I read it for the artful writing. When a bad writer is writing it I read it because I am dumb. |
Ah... Ok! Ok, I finally get it now, thank you.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
But escaping into another world, through immersion, is the goal of all fantasy escapism, from Harry Potter and A Song of Ice and Fire and Lord of the Rings, to Star Trek and Star Wars, to Avatar: The Last Airbender. "A work created with the goal of completely immersing its readers in a world, and characters' lives, that are very different from ours," is pretty-much the definition of fantasy escapism.
And "superhero comics" is part of the genre of fantasy escapism.
And Daredevil is a superhero comic.
|
Yeah, that's all just plain wrong. Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek and Star Wars are about SO MUCH MORE than just escaping (I don't know the others very well). If you're using them just to escape and feel happy then you're missing a tonne. |
Oh yeah, they're definitely about a lot more than just escapism. Intellectually. There are themes, and all that. I was really just talking about the emotional payoff of reading/watching fantasy. The thing that makes reading fantasy more fun than, say, reading a treatise on ethics. You might read the latter purely in order to better yourself, and you get the payoff that comes from feeling a little smarter than you felt before you read the treatise, but that's not even remotely similar to the emotional payoff of reading fantasy, even though the lessons included may be very much alike. The emotional payoff of reading fantasy is escapism.
Being immersed in the world and being able to picture the characters as well as you can picture your own family, seeing the world in your mind, seeing the action in your mind (or, if it's film, seeing the action in front of you and forgetting there's a screen, or a camera), knowing the characters as well as you know the people closest to you, being immersed in their lives, and loving those characters, flaws and all, and the excitement and emotion that comes from really caring what happens to them... all of that falls under the heading of, "escapism," and at least for me, it only comes from being completely immersed in the world, the characters, and the story.
That's the emotional payoff of reading. And when the work has, you know, themes and other things that are not just about escaping, escapism - being completely immersed in a story - is still the necessary difference between respecting a work of fiction, and loving it.
For example, I respect LOTR. I respect the impact it had on all future fantasy. I respect the depth of the world, the cultures it introduced us to that have become so fundamental to everything that followed. I respect the level of detail and thought that went into creating the world. I respect the story, the themes, and I think the story itself is well-plotted and well-paced, and absorbing.
In contrast, I love Harry Potter. I love how relateable he is, and Hermione, and even Ron, as well as many of the more minor characters (particularly Lupin). I'm able to love them, because they're presented as real, fully-fleshed people with motivations and confusions and all of the things that we relate to, and they're presented in a world that has rules and operates on a form of logic, which it then follows. I'm able to love HP, because I'm able to completely immerse myself in that world. This makes all the themes in the books resonate so much more than if I simply respected the books.
So... sorry, I rambled a bit. The basic point is, yes, you're right. Those works are about a lot more than just escapism. But escapism (with everything that word entails) is what I get out of them emotionally, and if it's done right, it makes the difference between a work that I can love, or a work that I can merely respect intellectually. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But the point is, would you read another Harry Potter book written by a new author? What if it was a terrible author? Would it still be Harry Potter?
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Katerine wrote: |
Anyway, you're right - it's not totally unrealistic that a DA would act that way. But it bugged me to see that this is his only behavior that we see. He's a DA. He represents the law. He represents justice. The same justice that Matt has always needed to believe in, even though recent (since Bendis) events have tested his belief so much.
James said in an earlier post that I clearly had not read the comics, because I said that DD believes in the law. But I have read the comics, every single one that I can get my hands on. From the silver age comics with the bizarre dialogue, to Miller's run, to Nocenti's run, to Born Again, and through Bendis and Brubaker and now Waid. And right up until Bendis' run, Matt has always struck me as somebody who believes in justice. Who believes that nobody should ever be helpless, either in the face of criminals or bullies, or in the face of the legal system. |
But you see the little move you've made? Before you were saying that the system (through the DA) should be portrayed as good because DD believes in the system. Now you're saying DD believes in justice. Which he does. But the system and justice aren't the same things. Usually they're quite far apart.
_________________
JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| james castle wrote: | | But the point is, would you read another Harry Potter book written by a new author? What if it was a terrible author? Would it still be Harry Potter? |
Ah, yes I think I see what you're saying.
The answer is, yes and no. If another HP book came out that was written by somebody other than JKR, this puts it in the category of, "fanfiction that's authorized to become an continuation of the canon."
Which, when you think about it, is what all Marvel superhero comics are nowadays. Fanfic that's authorized to become an continuation of the canon. Stan Lee is the original author - everybody else is basing their work on his, and on the canon works that came after his writings.
In the case of HP... it depends. Is it the continuing story? Is it leading to something else - a different story arc? Is it probably going to continue on, by more authors, even after the current arc is ended? If so, yes, I will probably at least check the books out at the library. After all, I've read a lot of HP fanfic. Some of it is even really good.
Just to clarify... to me, "Really good HP fanfic" means, "shows, not just a basic understanding of how to write a story, but also a respect for JKR's characters and themes, and an understanding of her world and its logic."
That is actually an extremely broad definition. It encompasses everything from the most sprawling dramatic story told in JKR's style, to the Marauder's teenage MST3K of the Prisoner of Azkaban (yes, there was a fanfic that was entirely the story of the teenage Marauders somehow getting a copy of the Prizoner of Azkaban (the book), and reading and commenting on it. It was hilarious.)
The only things that definition of "good fanfic" doesn't encompass, are:
- stories that, say, portray Harry or Hermione, or, God forbid, Molly Weasley, as a villain (not just from, say, Draco's POV, but actually being a villain) for no apparent reason (i.e. disrespecting JKR's characters, to the point of character assassination.)
- stories that essentially say that, say, seeking power for yourself at the expense of other people and looking out for yourself first, is a good thing, when the story is not told from a Slytherin's POV (i.e. disrespecting JKR's themes).
- badly-written stories (bad internal logic, bad grammar, bad pacing, bad storytelling, etc.)
- stories that introduce poorly-fleshed characters that have no real motivation other than to move the plot to where the author needs it to go. (also falls under the heading of bad storytelling, bad character design, etc.)
- stories that reveal a clear non-understanding of the world's logic. For example, having Expecto Patronum produce a ghost that then proceeds to haunt the main character. For no reason (i.e. it's not established that this is a spell gone horribly wrong because of a bad wand or something... it just appears that the writer thinks that this is what the spell does, even though what it does has been very, very clearly defined).
If they do any of those things, then no, it would no longer be Harry Potter.
So... that's what I look for. Just a respect for the characters and where they are, and an understanding of the world, so even if it doesn't completely match with mine, I could see how it could. In short, all I ask is that the writer be at least as much of a fan as I am, and that they care about doing justice to the world and to its characters and to JKR's themes. Oh, and that they have the basic ability to write a good story.
If I were reading a fanfic that failed to do this, I would simply stop reading and move onto the next one. If, OTOH, I were reading something I paid for, that's supposed to be part of the canon, that failed to do this, I would probably get upset. As you've seen.
Back to the comics... would I stop reading DD if it were badly written? Only if his character were assassinated (figuratively speaking - or, for that matter, literally) in the process. Say, if, after all of the work and progress he's put into getting better, he suddenly decides, for no real reason other than laziness and sadism, "f*ck it, I'm tired of letting these criminals get away with everything." And then he stands by and jeers while some random minor criminal gets run over by a train. Just because he doesn't care anymore/is sadistic. If something like that were ever to be written, it would cease to be DD, and I would probably throw something heavy at my TV stop buying the comics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| james castle wrote: | | Katerine wrote: |
Anyway, you're right - it's not totally unrealistic that a DA would act that way. But it bugged me to see that this is his only behavior that we see. He's a DA. He represents the law. He represents justice. The same justice that Matt has always needed to believe in, even though recent (since Bendis) events have tested his belief so much.
James said in an earlier post that I clearly had not read the comics, because I said that DD believes in the law. But I have read the comics, every single one that I can get my hands on. From the silver age comics with the bizarre dialogue, to Miller's run, to Nocenti's run, to Born Again, and through Bendis and Brubaker and now Waid. And right up until Bendis' run, Matt has always struck me as somebody who believes in justice. Who believes that nobody should ever be helpless, either in the face of criminals or bullies, or in the face of the legal system. |
But you see the little move you've made? Before you were saying that the system (through the DA) should be portrayed as good because DD believes in the system. Now you're saying DD believes in justice. Which he does. But the system and justice aren't the same things. Usually they're quite far apart. |
Sorry, I didn't reread the entire thread before I posted, so I misremembered the word I used.
Also, please understand that I'm a Criminal Minds fan. To my mind, "the system" and "justice" aren't so far apart.
"The system" is flawed, because it's made up of people, and people, particularly huge populations of people, are flawed. However, I like to think that "the system" is not as corrupt as it's often portrayed for convenience. It's far easier to show the FBI guy, or the cop, or the DA, as a mustache-twirling villain or an idiot, than it is to show him as an at-least-moderately-intelligent guy that's devoted his livelihood to trying to save people's lives.
And I think that DD believes that as well, or at least he wants to. The problem isn't that his expectations of the system are too low, it's that they're too high. When they let him down, as they must, he winds up having to pick up the pieces himself. This leads to disappointment and anger, that he then misdirects (because he can't direct it at the system without becoming the thing he hates).
I keep remembering all the times he's talked about respecting servicemen and cops, and "goddamn it, I didn't get into this to fight cops," and various statements of respect for other lawyers. I remember all of the times in the older comics that Foggy has argued against representing a client because he's guilty, and Matt argued that he still deserved to be represented. I remember his decision to become a defense attorney in the first place, because it was so painful to hear his father so desperate and helpless, because of what he'd done as a mob enforcer. "I only defend innocent clients" was a relatively recent development, and not one for the better. But it's a change I understand, because I think that the change is due to Matt forgetting who he is, due to everything he's been through.
He believes in the system. That's why it keeps disappointing him. If you don't believe in something, it can't disappoint you. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
I saw that you quoted me, but I don't have the moral strength to read the truckload of stuff you've written, especially since you seem to just repeat what you've already said over and over again.
you've won the argument by attrition. good day.
p.s.: you're into ASOIAF? nice. My favourite character is Greatjon Umber. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Francesco wrote: | I saw that you quoted me, but I don't have the moral strength to read the truckload of stuff you've written, especially since you seem to just repeat what you've already said over and over again.
you've won the argument by attrition. good day. |
Uh, thanks! I, personally, don't feel I "won" the argument, since I wound up agreeing with you, though. The rest was just me explaining the reason for still being disappointed, even though you are correct.
| Quote: | | p.s.: you're into ASOIAF? nice. My favourite character is Greatjon Umber. |
And Tormund? I remember Greatjon having one of those big personalities that's easy to love, but hard to understand.
When I think of favorites, I just consider the big characters (although I mourned Syrio (assuming he actually died), and, of course, everybody loves Dolorous Edd ). And in ASOIAF, it keeps changing! Like, constantly!
- After reading AGOT, it was Arya
- After reading ACOK, it was Tyrion
- After reading ASOS, it was Danaerys
- After reading AFFK, it was Jaime
- I'm still reading ADWD, but I think it might be Tyrion again. ADWD is sluggish, which is weird, because, unlike book AFFK, it has most of my favorites. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
