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| How dark do you like your Daredevil? |
| As dark as espresso - the more pain he's in the better |
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23% |
[ 4 ] |
| A touch of cream - I don't want him borderline suicidal, just plain unhappy is good enough |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
| Café au Lait - steady hardship all around with an occasional smile (along the lines of issues #95-97) |
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35% |
[ 6 ] |
| Single shot Mocha - sweet and light mixed up with the madness. Foggy and Matt actually grab a beer every once in while. There may even be a joke (along the lines of issue #93 and first half of #95) |
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35% |
[ 6 ] |
| Caramel Frapuccino with whipped cream and chocolate sauce - we're talking the Kesel and Kelly eras... |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 17 |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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 Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | I ageee totally also, but may I ask to please drop the whole "those who don't look forward to Karaoke and beers with Foggy and Becky = sadist readers"? |
I don't equal those to sadists. The middle "Café au Lait" option is not my favourite, but sounds reasonable....but there is people voting the "the more pain he's in the better" option! (yes, I regard these as sadists, and I think that there is no trouble as some of them admit so freely  )
Incidentally, while bent in an almost-Keselian approach for DD, I like dark expresso with little sugar for a drink 
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | For all the trouble Matt and karen go through, they end in that great splash face, holding hands and smiling... not that life is going to be a bed of roses for them (is it for anybody?), but this end gives HOPE.
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Exactly. They are having "holding hands and smiling together"-happiness, not "throwing a Karaoke party with Foggy getting drunk and dancing on a table"-sitcomish happiness.
Side note: I voted Café au lait, too. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | ...not "throwing a Karaoke party with Foggy getting drunk and dancing on a table"-sitcomish happiness. |
Not that I see nothing wrong with it. I mean, I'm not seriously disturbed at the thought of our enlightened Lawyers boozed up and singing Off-tune with their ties as improvised headbands, while new bussiness partner miss Blake, Mrs. Murdock and private Investigator North giggle themselves silly about the music show.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | Exactly. They are having "holding hands and smiling together"-happiness, not "throwing a Karaoke party with Foggy getting drunk and dancing on a table"-sitcomish happiness.
Side note: I voted Café au lait, too. |
I think you may be just a little hyperbolic here. I don't think Gloria suggested actually spending a lot of panel space to exploring what the lawyers do after a hard day's work (correct me if I'm wrong). Because there are such precious few pages available to tell a story, most of them need to be devoted to advancing the current story being told. What they do between panels and issues, is a different story...
I personally voted for option number four, but leaning more towards number three than number five actually (even though I liked the Kesel issues a great deal). Matt is a very conflicted and complex person, with tons of baggage and a traumatic past, but he does have a sense of humor and some degree of optimism in him, and that aspect of the character is important to offset all the pain and suffering he goes through. Having both sides makes him more realistic as a character and consequently more relatable.
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The Other Murdock Papers |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: |
I think you may be just a little hyperbolic here. I don't think Gloria suggested actually spending a lot of panel space to exploring what the lawyers do after a hard day's work (correct me if I'm wrong). |
No, I certainly didn't suggest to have an entire annual devoted to an office party  (in fact, in my previous post, I outstretched the situation for fun )
A mere occasional pannel suggesting that life at Nelson, Blake & Murdock is not always about brooding and grinding of teeth would suffice.
In fact, the recent Black tarantula-related Annual had a nice dose of humour (I'm thinking, for instance, about the Dakota-Carlos interaction) I don't see why can it be like that every then and now.
| jumonji wrote: | | I personally voted for option number four, but leaning more towards number three than number five actually (even though I liked the Kesel issues a great deal). Matt is a very conflicted and complex person, with tons of baggage and a traumatic past, but he does have a sense of humor and some degree of optimism in him, and that aspect of the character is important to offset all the pain and suffering he goes through. Having both sides makes him more realistic as a character and consequently more relatable. |
Right, a proper chiaroscuro has lots of darkness, but also a bit of light.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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The Overlord
Paradiso
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 1095
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | Francesco wrote: | Exactly. They are having "holding hands and smiling together"-happiness, not "throwing a Karaoke party with Foggy getting drunk and dancing on a table"-sitcomish happiness.
Side note: I voted Café au lait, too. |
I think you may be just a little hyperbolic here. I don't think Gloria suggested actually spending a lot of panel space to exploring what the lawyers do after a hard day's work (correct me if I'm wrong). Because there are such precious few pages available to tell a story, most of them need to be devoted to advancing the current story being told. What they do between panels and issues, is a different story...
I personally voted for option number four, but leaning more towards number three than number five actually (even though I liked the Kesel issues a great deal). Matt is a very conflicted and complex person, with tons of baggage and a traumatic past, but he does have a sense of humor and some degree of optimism in him, and that aspect of the character is important to offset all the pain and suffering he goes through. Having both sides makes him more realistic as a character and consequently more relatable. |
There are ways to do dark stories without DD's life falling apart. dd can be angry, sad or disgusted at a villains actions because Matt his a good person, rather than having personal stakes involved.
Matt for example hasn't met Purple Man since his revamp. Killgrave has done anything to him personally, but wouldn't Matt hate Killgrave just because he is a sadistic rapist serial killer, rather than anything Killgrave has done to Matt. |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | I'd ask the sadists if they'd trade their lives for Matt's. |
I wouldn't trade my life for Matt's for all the tea in Hells Kitchen. {Answering this question does not make me a sadist.}
Comparing mine to his, gives me a new appreciation for how good I got it.
First of all, I couldn't take the physical stress that he has to put up with. That has to take its toll over the long haul. Even more, is the mental and emotional stress that he must fight through. It must be incredibly difficult to keep a strong grip on his sanity.
Matt's life isn't fair, but then tell me who's is. The difference is that his world is much more violent than mine. Extreme situations call for extreme solutions. He does what he has to do, or at least, what he feels he has to do. And he may have stepped over a line, at some point in his extracurricular career, when he started muscling hoods for information. He still hasn't slipped too far down the path, but at some point, thank you Mr. Miller, DD became the flawed hero, that he is now. Someone who weighs all the input and decides what is right. It's alot of weight to carry. It's not something that I feel qualified to handle.
But that's one of the things that makes him a hero.
| Quote: | I find Matt/DD to be an extremely relatable character and when he's down (or up) that affects me as a reader. I can certainly relate to his pain. BUT, it becomes "unrelatable" when the suffering is so constant and so intense that Matt (and the readers) completely lose track of those "bigger" things that ultimately make life worthwhile.
Matt needs a karaoke night (or something similar) once in a while to remind him of why he keeps on going. Of course, we can't have Matt and Foggy having beer take up an entire issue, but a lighter tone is sometimes needed. Constant despair it not something I can relate to. |
It's got to be pretty tough to fit in the light-hearted moments with all that he's been put through, and the demands placed on him now, especially given Milla's situation. But, yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing, an appropriately placed scene where he could blow off some steam, in a fun manner. Perhaps, during the upcoming trial arc. Right now, his life doesn't seem to offer many lighthearted opportunities.
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It's never too late to have a happy childhood! |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Neilan wrote: | | Gloria wrote: | | I'd ask the sadists if they'd trade their lives for Matt's. |
[...]
Matt's life isn't fair, but then tell me who's is. The difference is that his world is much more violent than mine. Extreme situations call for extreme solutions. He does what he has to do, or at least, what he feels he has to do. And he may have stepped over a line, at some point in his extracurricular career, when he started muscling hoods for information. He still hasn't slipped too far down the path, but at some point, thank you Mr. Miller, DD became the flawed hero, that he is now. Someone who weighs all the input and decides what is right. It's alot of weight to carry. It's not something that I feel qualified to handle.
But that's one of the things that makes him a hero.
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Well said, Neil.
Oh, and about being hyperbolic, may I remind you that, when I expressed my vision about why one appreciates DD's life being hard because it reflects, mutatis mutandis, ours, I got the reply with the cilice thing? |
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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This is a very interesting thread. I voted in it a little while ago (can't remember what I voted, actually), but this is the first time I've had a chance to comment.
I do remember that it was a difficult choice for me, since it didn't seem like any of the options applied. The problem is, I think it's right when Matt is suffering, but I don't like to see him suffering for the sake of suffering, if that makes any sense.
I've mentioned this elsewhere, but to me, the biggest thing that makes Matt a hero is the fact that his mind is in so much chaos and pain, and yet he still tries to save everybody else - even the people who cause him even more pain. To me, that makes him not only a hero, but a veritable saint.
I think that if we cut to Matt and Foggy having drinks and karioke(!!!), this would not only be jarring, but also ultimately extremely unsatisfying. To undermine his suffering is to undermine his strength.
OTOH, I do think that he should get more positive feedback. Don't have the suffering itself be less, but do give him some confirmation once in a while that the suffering is worth it - that there is a point to what he does. From time to time, he should be allowed to experience the fact that yes, the people in this world are worth saving. Instead of constantly suffering for people who would just as soon spit in his face.
(That's why I liked "Decalogue," btw. Because, in a way, the people that he saved had a chance to save him in return.) |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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OK, I'll go straight to the classics (and frgive me the inaccuracies as I'm quoting from memory).
In George Bernard Shaw's play "Saint Joan" King Charles of France has a chat with the ghost of Jeanne La Pucelle.
Charles tells Joanie -in order to comfort her soul- that she should feel good: the process against her has been invalidated and her memoir vindicated (Charles doesn't know it, but in time Jeanne will be even Sanctified).
Jeanne answers: "Yes, Fine, but can you unburn me?"
What I mean to say: we can't burn Matt at a stake for sanctity's sake: He's a saint enough for me just being a good man even if he weren't suffering as beastly as he usually is... Unless you can unburn him (if so, give Jeanne' ghost the recipe)
As for the karaoke, I opted for it in a playful mood, but Goshdarnit, DD worked fine as a happy guy back in the Kesel days... I agree that suffering showcases his extraordinary heroic nature, it's just, I feel it's INHUMAN to have the poor wraith suffering all the friggin' time.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What I mean to say: we can't burn Matt at a stake for sanctity's sake: He's a saint enough for me just being a good man even if he weren't suffering as beastly as he usually is... |
But the thing is, Matt isn't "burning at stake" because we want him to in order to be a saint. He suffers this much because this is what his life as superhero/vigilante gives him.
About the Kaorioke thing, I swear I won't mention it anymore . But to tell you the truth, I too think that the excessive lack of happy moments can somewhat diminish the realism of the book. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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After the recent events  (that is, the story spanning from #94 to #105), I don't know you, but I sorely need a beer with the folks.
Thanks For that, Gene! You're a sweetheart! Here's to happier times!
(BTW, I love Foggy's Hawaïan shirt plus tie: an awesome combination! Chic and casual)
(BTW, Check Gene The Dean's website if you haven't: well worth a visit!)
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Katerine
Flying Blind
Joined: 05 Feb 2008
Posts: 45
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| (backed up, then deleted my original post. I wrote it when half-asleep last night, and on further reflection, it wasn't really appropriate as-written. I might rewrite it at some future date, though. For now, I'll just leave this in case anybody's replying. Sorry about that...) |
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Knatty Dreadnok
Flying Blind
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 58
Location: Interstate Of Mind
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe I missed this thread. Nice one. I picked single shot of mocha but cafe au lait was a close second. Truth betold I enjoy most facets of DD's stories.
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hardboiledzombie
Flying Blind
Joined: 21 Jul 2010
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think we're necessarily sadists. It's just that there is something extremely inspiring about a character who continually falls so hard, yet always manages to rise up more determined than ever before. Unfortunately for Matt, it makes for some fantastic entertainment.
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"When it comes to that one final, fatal act of ending you...my gun has no bullets."
- Daredevil, DD #191 |
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