Daredevil Message Board

[Blind Alley]

ROUND 1
Showdown 1 : #169 "Devils" (8 votes) vs #245 "Burn !" (3 votes)
Showdown 2 : #191 "Roulette" (11) vs #247 "The Backwards Man" (1)
Showdown 3 : #192 "Promises" (4) vs #266 "A Beer With The Devil"(5) vs V2 #88 "The Secret Life of Foggy Nelson" (1)
Showdown 4 : #219 "Badlands" (3) vs #268 "Golden Rut" (7) vs V2 #94 "Our Love Story" (0)
Showdown 5 : #185 "Guts" (7) vs #223 "The Price" (1) vs #277 "Of Crowns and Horns" (1)
Showdown 6 : #225 ". . . And Then You Die" (4) vs #291 "All The News That Fits" (4)
Showdown 7 : #208 "The Deadliest Night of My Life" (2) vs #236 "American Dreamer"(2) vs #304 "34 Hours"(5)
Showdown 8 : #220 "Fog" (5) vs #238 "It Comes With The Claws" (1) vs #380 "Just One Good Story"(5)
ROUND 2
Showdown 9 : #169 "Devils" (7) vs #185 "Guts"(3)
Showdown 10 : #191 "Roulette" (6) vs #225 ". . . And Then You Die" (1) vs #291 "All The News That Fits"(1)
Showdown 11 : #266 "A Beer With The Devil" (4) vs #304 "34 Hours" (4)
Showdown 12 : #220 "Fog" (5) vs #268 "Golden Rut" (2) vs #380 "Just One Good Story" (1)
ROUND 3
Showdown 13 : #169 "Devils" (4) vs #266 "A Beer With The Devil" (2) vs #304 "34 Hours" (2)
Showdown 14 : #191 "Roulette" (6) vs #220 "Fog" (2)
FINAL :
Showdown 15 : #169 "Devils" vs #191 "Roulette"

So it's the final showdown !
Miller vs Miller.
Two issues from the great run of FM in the 80s.
Two issues featuring Bullseye.

PLEASE, before you vote for "Roulette", please take the time to read my plea for "Devils".

You might like #191 better because it seemingly deals with more adult themes whereas #169 could be seen as "classic-superhero-fight" just done right.
My point is #191 is trying too hard to be serious. It's like Miller took one step back on his whole run of DD and stated that while he had a lot of fun doing it, he was bored with guys in tights fighting each other.
#191 revealed that Matt once got smacked by his dad and that this lead Matt to choose the lawyer carreer because he believed in the necessity of rules.

Well, Matt/DD basically said the same thing (about the necessity of laws) at the end of #169 and the point was as well expressed (or maybe better) as in #191.
Except in #191, he says so but he barely believes it. The DD in this issue seems to be hopeless.
He also seems sadistic, torturing Bullseye who is paralyzed on a bed.
If you have no prior knowledge of their relationship, you wouldn't understand why Matt feels so mad about Bullseye.
On this aspect, #191 doesn't work that well as a stand-alone.
It's more like Frank Miller's reflection on his job on the series before he moves on to other things.

The DD of #191 comes to hospital to psychologically torture Bullseye after being pissed-off by events where Bullseye had little to do.
(Sure, the kid Jurgens watched DD fight Bullseye on TV, so what ? This is far from being the only element of violence to be shown on TV).
So, DD comes with a gun and says he feels guilty about the kid snapping up (whereas DD never used a gun to kill, and never used a gun in front of that kid).
So, what do we have in this tale ?
The dangers of guns, of violence on TV and DD refusing to shoot Bullseye when, in the first place, he just shouldn't have brought that gun...

#169 is fresher, more hopeful, it's got more action, more humor.
And I think that Janson's inking is better than Austin's, too.
The DD of #169 fights for justice and believes in laws, though he has doubts and hesitates to save Bullseye.
Yet, he's saving him (and not torturing him).
He's heroic and human at the same time.
That's my DD. That's why I'll vote it as my favorite stand-alone issue.

Well, now you can vote for "Roulette" but if you could post some comments on why you feel like voting so, it would be very much appreciated.

This poll will be running for... five days ! (yeah, it's the FINAL, it deserved an extra day!)
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[Dimetre]

They're both fantastic. I'm not that surprised that both issues were written by Miller.

I'm voting for "Devils". It truly does stand alone better than "Roulette." You don't need to have read previous issues to understand why Bullseye hates Daredevil so much. For "Roulette" some familiarity with the Elektra saga is required to understand Daredevil's state of mind. But really, Daredevil dragging Bullseye from the path of an oncoming train says so many beautiful things about his character. And his defense of his actions to Manolis afterwards is so eloquent. I have to go with "Devils."

[jduteau]

Having just read both of these issues, my opinions on them are fairly fresh. I just found Daredevil with the gun playing a form of russian roulette to be out-of-character for him. Even with the stuff that he'd been going through. So to me #169 just makes more sense and is the classic superhero dilemma done DD-style. "If I save this insane person, will it come back to haunt me? If I let him die, will that come back to haunt me?"

So #169 got my vote.

Jean

[Francesco]

oh well...
I am seriously undecided as to which of these splendid issues by Miller will get my vote.
I'll make a personal (and certainly not complete) analysis of both of them to help clear my ideas a bit and decide which one is the best "standalone issue".

But first off, I'd like to precise something about the definition of "standalone issue".
Yeah, because, in the previous installments of this contest, and especially here with Alley's "plea for Devils" (which, let's face it, wasn't much a "plea for Devils" as it was a, slightly injust, way to diminish Roulette in favour of Devils), I feel it has been given an erroneous vision of a "standalone issue".

In the "prologue" topics to the showdown, it has been discussed if some issues could be considered as falling into the definition of "standalone". #181 comes to mind.
It was concluded that the issues in which the story was part of a definite storyline weren't to be considered "standalone". Okay. Fine.
Then slowly, the definition became something like "it must be an issue that can define every aspect of the whole Daredevil comic in the most thorough way possible".

I wouldn't know. I'd say that an issue that is not connected with any storyarc can compete as the best Daredevil issue even if (or maybe, better if) it isn't necessarily a pastiche of all the various aspect.

[jumonji]

I voted for Roulette, and I'm surprised to see that Devils might win this title. I have nothing against Devils, it's a very good issue, but Roulette is a mind-blowingly good issue. Okay, I'm not sure "mind-blowingly good" is correct English, but you know what I mean. I didn't think I would have to make a plea for it, but here goes:

Technicalities: Roulette is, in my opinion, a more self-contained issue and thus a better example of a stand-alone issue. It's true that both work fine by themselves, but Roulette feels less connected to the issues that came before and after. That's not a big deal, and the distinction here is a little vague, but as a stand-alone issue, Roulette works better for me.

Character exploration: Both issues show off the complexity of the character nicely, and he definitely comes off as more noble in Devils than in Roulette, but I think Roulette gives us a more thourough examination of the many layers of Matt Murdock. In his conversation with Bullseye, he talks about his childhood, his motivations, his insecurities, the dichotomoy of his two guises and his own doubts regarding his self-appointed role in society. This could easily come off as pretentious storytelling in the hands of a less competent scribe, but Miller handles this balancing act nicely. It works for me and I find Roulette to be an emotional read. As for this issue being out of character, as was suggested above, I have to disagree. This is Matt at a low point, actually torturing himself as much as he is torturing Bullseye.

General plot: Very different between the two. Devils is more standard action fare (though very good in its genre), whereas Roulette is more about character exploration. One thing I actually like about Devils, though, is that is shows DD's powers at both their highest point (isolating a single cough, though I would rather have seen him track them by scent which would have been more realistic) and their lowest point when he's fighting Bullseye in the subway. DD's powers are at once his greatest weakness and strength which is an interesting aspect of the character. However, I still prefer the calmer approach and the tension of Roulette, but that's a personal preference.

Art: Blind Alley is my personal go-to guy for opinions about art (hi Alley! *waves*), since I'm not good at judging these things objectively, but I like the clean lines of Roulette. There isn't much going on on the page, but I think it's an efficient way of telling this particular story.

At the end of the day, I base my decision on my personal gut feeling. I can't say that Roulette is the best issue, objectively, but it's my favorite of the two. Those were my two "öre" (unfortunately only 1/7th of a cent each).
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[Blind Alley]

Well, I should have written :
"I like Janson's inking better than Austin's on Miller 's art."

Because both are very good inkers but they have very different styles.
Byrne+Austin on the Uncanny X-Men was a wonderful team.
But Miller+Austin on "Roulette" : I don't digg it. Too much hatching.

But it's really a matter of taste.
Someone once told me that Miller himself asked for some panels of Dark Knight to be re-inked because his style had evolved and he didn't feel some Janson's inking was fitting...
(If you look at panels of "Hunt The Dark Knight", you can see some "broad" and some "fine" inking : the fine one was done by Miller).

I must also confess that my first post was willingly "agressive" on "Roulette" because I wanted to get some reactions.
I'm glad "Devils" being ahead for now but if "Roulette" did a come-back and won the title, there would be no shame...

Anyway... Go, "Devils", go !
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