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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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 Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| No I actually mean a generic Flintstones character, the ordinary one you would see in Flintstones-ville, wearing just a prehistoric rag and going around barefoot with enormous toes exposed. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I see, someone with a furry bowtie and a five O'clock shade à la Fred Flinstone: "Dakotaa! Open da Door!"
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | (...)Seriously though, I was just re-reading some of the early Frank Miller stuff the other day, and in so many ways Foggy is a much better friend than Matt deserves. Like when he doesn't want to even talk to Matt because he's so ashamed of how badly their firm is doing despite his every effort to keep things going. Meanwhile, Matt's appearances in the office are so sporadic that he is more reminiscent of a moody teenager who's skipping class every other day.
Not to mention how quick he was to forgive Matt for not telling him about his secret life. There were a couple of issues, I think, between his finding out about it and the two of them actually talking about it. I don't know how many days that translates into, but Foggy went around for quite a while thinking that Matt was only pretending to be blind (which is really quite a bit worse than the lesser evil of seriously downplaying his special powers). I can't even imagine how stupid that must have made him feel.
What can I say, if everyone were like Foggy Nelson, this world would be a lot happier...  |
| Dave Wallace wrote: | | Foggy is probably a better friend than Matt deserves, yeah. |
Yes, I think he's not only Matt's best buddy (yes, a much better a buddy than Spidey, folks!) but one of the best friends a guy can have... not just in the MU, or in the superhero genre, but anywhere!
I don't like it when some stories portray Foggy as a mere assistant to matt, or aeven a lesser lawyer: after all, while Matt was here and there and eventually leaving his life as a lawyer behind, Foggy has always, sustainedly, been a lawyer. To me, there is no doubt that he's more skilled, and experienced, as well as more aware of all the tricks and shortcuts of ordinary justice. To portray the duo faithfully, I think that none of the partners is better than the other, but their different skills and sensibilities (Matt the idealist, Nelson the practical, feet-on-the-ground guy) make them symbiotic(complementary to make a terrific team... and watch out! for now they have Becky in the team!).
I dislike it when Foggy's practical mind is used by a writer to present him like a jerk... i.e. in the mini "Redemption" (which otherwise is an excellent DD story, BTW), he's presented as someone who is insensible to the case of a young man of the Deep South facing the capital Punishment, because of the reputation of the firm and other besides... I think we have seen Foggy enough times taking hopeless or non-benefit (pro-bono) cases, or allowing/accepting Matt to do so... not forgetting all the times he's covered for Matt, or handled a case solo because Matt was too busy in DD affairs... So hardly a man to let a young man die only because he's got a bad reputation in a Mississipi town for being partial to heavy metal.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | I don't like it when some stories portray Foggy as a mere assistant to matt, or aeven a lesser lawyer: after all, while Matt was here and there and eventually leaving his life as a lawyer behind, Foggy has always, sustainedly, been a lawyer. To me, there is no doubt that he's more skilled, and experienced, as well as more aware of all the tricks and shortcuts of ordinary justice. To portray the duo faithfully, I think that none of the partners is better than the other, but their different skills and sensibilities (Matt the idealist, Nelson the practical, feet-on-the-ground guy) make them symbiotic(complementary to make a terrific team... and watch out! for now they have Becky in the team!).
I dislike it when Foggy's practical mind is used by a writer to present him like a jerk... i.e. in the mini "Redemption" (which otherwise is an excellent DD story, BTW), he's presented as someone who is insensible to the case of a young man of the Deep South facing the capital Punishment, because of the reputation of the firm and other besides... I think we have seen Foggy enough times taking hopeless or non-benefit (pro-bono) cases, or allowing/accepting Matt to do so... not forgetting all the times he's covered for Matt, or handled a case solo because Matt was too busy in DD affairs... So hardly a man to let a young man die only because he's got a bad reputation in a Mississipi town for being partial to heavy metal. |
I agree. I think the difference between Foggy and Matt in the whole idealism department is that Foggy is better than Matt at balancing doing the right thing with being practical and more grounded in reality. And every team, legal or otherwise, needs someone who can keep his eyes on the ball and make sure that things get done and bills get paid. That doesn't mean that Foggy isn't just as motivated by "doing the right thing," but that he approaches things more rationally than Matt does. And Foggy is definitely a really good lawyer, no doubt about it!
(And btw, I liked Daredevil: Redemption too, but actually thought it could have benefitted from being a Matt Murdock mini-series without DD in it. Not only does it not make sense to bring your alter ego to a small town out of state, the book wasn't part of regular continuity anyway and was mostly aimed at people who enjoy reading about solving crime and court room drama.)
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | (And btw, I liked Daredevil: Redemption too, but actually thought it could have benefitted from being a Matt Murdock mini-series without DD in it. Not only does it not make sense to bring your alter ego to a small town out of state...) |
Yes, I think that Matt could have done his research on the spot without the costume... Otherwise, "people will talk" and more in a small village in the countriside where gossip
Incidentally I was a bit annoyed at another thing there. The girl (a N&M intern?) going along with Matt makes a comment about Foggy being flirtatious with her over the phone which shows she's far from pleased about that (this is, the writer choose to give a negative view of the fact), and no doubt she'll be less displeased if Matt were the one making compliments about her looks... Discrimination!! 
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | Incidentally I was a bit annoyed at another thing there. The girl (a N&M intern?) going along with Matt makes a comment about Foggy being flirtatious with her over the phone which shows she's far from pleased about that (this is, the writer choose to give a negative view of the fact), and no doubt she'll be less displeased if Matt were the one making compliments about her looks... Discrimination!! |
Hmm... Yes, I do wonder what she would have said if Matt complimented her on her looks.  What if he had said something like "You have a really sexy voice, baby, and that shampoo you're using just blows me away."
I think that maybe because it was the writer's first time writing DD, he got some of the characterization off. There was also an iffy "senses moment" (in my mind at least) when he has DD's radar pick up the details of that guy's teeth on the table from several meters away. Right... I can think of ten other ways he would have known that the guy was pulling his teeth out (the sound of him pulling them out, the sound of the teeth hitting the table after he's pulled them out, the sound of him talking without his teeth, the smell of blood mixed with saliva coming from the table...). You get my point. I really love it when the senses are written well (like they are right now with Brubaker) and I tend to see it as cheating when DD is written as if he could see, in the ordinary sense of the word. But now I'm definitely off topic.
Back to Foggy (go Foggy, go!). I don't see Foggy as someone that would make inappropriate passes at women, especially ones interning in their office. That's just way off base, and Foggy is a good guy. Right?! I mean, that's what this whole thread is about, after all. 
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| jumonji wrote: | | Hmm... Yes, I do wonder what she would have said if Matt complimented her on her looks. What if he had said something like "You have a really sexy voice, baby, and that shampoo you're using just blows me away." |
Wow! what a goof!! You know, Matt is so self-reliant -with his radar and enhanced senses and all that- that i forgot myself he's blind, LOL... but yes, if he had complimented her on her smell, voice, etc (not forgetting that he could get her silouette through the radar) I bet he would have been pleased and maybe she would have answered back in a mild flirtatious way ("OoOooOH, really, Mr. Murdock!" )
| jumonji wrote: |
I think that maybe because it was the writer's first time writing DD, he got some of the characterization off. There was also an iffy "senses moment" (in my mind at least) when he has DD's radar pick up the details of that guy's teeth on the table from several meters away. Right... I can think of ten other ways he would have known that the guy was pulling his teeth out (the sound of him pulling them out, the sound of the teeth hitting the table after he's pulled them out, the sound of him talking without his teeth, the smell of blood mixed with saliva coming from the table...). You get my point. I really love it when the senses are written well (like they are right now with Brubaker) and I tend to see it as cheating when DD is written as if he could see, in the ordinary sense of the word. But now I'm definitely off topic. |
Yes, I think that a definite mark of good DD writing is to make feel the reader Matt definitely can't see, but he can get a good idea from what's going on with the rest of his senses.
I think "The Devil takes a ride" had a nice point in showcasing Matt's sense of smell. The flashback when he reminisces about the way his dadsmelled was great, and nearly brought a tear to my eyes.
| jumonji wrote: | | Back to Foggy (go Foggy, go!). I don't see Foggy as someone that would make inappropriate passes at women, especially ones interning in their office. That's just way off base, and Foggy is a good guy. Right?! I mean, that's what this whole thread is about, after all. |
Well, the only instances I can recall Foggy actually being flirtatious with a worker of the firm -apart from the example in "Redemption"- was way back when he was utterly mad about Karen, and then he was quite well-behaved about it...
In Bob Gale's "Playing to the Camera", it is suggested that Foggy hires Elaine as a researcher because she is quite goodlooking (though it soon becomes obvious that she's more than a pretty face)... and there's no evidence of flirting, though it's obvious there that Franklin doesn't mind hitting it off with a beautiful new employee, but otherwise no sign of him hitting her on.
There was a moment in the Bendis run where we saw him doing a bit of small talk with a N&M intern, but it was more small talk than actual flirt, and showed that the firm is a place where an intern may afford exchanging humorous remarks with the boss.
Foggy is usually a bit of a shyster with girls, so, yes, I personally consider that having him in an open -and bothersome to a woman- flirtatious attitude is a bit off-character.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Today I've been doing a bit of shopping and I have seized the occasion to visit the FNAC (for non-europeans: a mall-style shopping center specialized in "cultural" consumerism: books, music & films).
I've just seen a collection of the recent Marvel Team-up: since browsing is allowed in those places, I been reading it a bit to consider his purchase.
I am a bit disappointed.
For, you see, there's a reunion at Nelson & Murdock. The firm's clients have specifically asked for Matt to be present, Matt feels something and "has to leave" (no explanations beyond the usual "i'm feeling a bit unwell" ) so Foggy, who knows that some supervillain has just reached the neighbourhood, and has to cover for Matt, excuses him by telling the clients that it's possibly due to some spicy foodMatt just ate, and that Matt will be back "in a minute".
Of course, Matt ain't back in a minute, for once he gets in the costume, he becomes absolutely oblivious of the fact that there are clients waiting for him. Foggy, of course, has to spend the rest of the issue reassuring his clients that Matt will soon be back. Of course the clients wait, because they only want to discuss the details with the famous Mr. Murdock (while most possibly the person who will be actually working in the case will be Foggy).
BTW, the villain is... the Stilt-Man!! Yes, Matt is obliterating his bussiness duties to fight the freakin' Stilt-man!! Any standard super-rookie could beat the crap out of Stilt-Man! In fact I'd say that, if Stilt-man ever visited the DC Universe, it wouln't be a case for Superman but for Jimmy Olsen.
I know this is a staple running gag in "Daredevil" , but I think it's a bit disrespectful of those writing the character to reduce Foggy's role to some kind of intern/butler, when it is becoming obvious that, more and more, the firm is becoming for Matt just a front for his life as DD... You can bet anything that the guy who brought the Daily Globe to its knees was Foggy, and not Matt, who was surely too busy being the Kingpin of Hell's Kitchen to bother about trifles like lawsuits, trials and appeals (and I'm talking about a tabloid, a sheet of paper that can destroy a man's life at a whim of the editor!!)
Dammit, will I have to start a campaign to demand a bit of respect for Foggy's reputation as a lawyer?!
Good thing that Brubaker treats respectfully his skills as a lawyer. It would be good for other authors to follow suit
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Dimetre
Underboss
Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 1366
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | Dammit, will I have to start a campaign to demand a bit of respect for Foggy's reputation as a lawyer?!
Good thing that Brubaker treats respectfully his skills as a lawyer. It would be good for other authors to follow suit |
I think there are some writers in the past that have gotten it right. Frank Miller during Born Again portrayed Foggy to be a formidable enough lawyer to impress Wilson Fisk. I however think Foggy's greatest moment was when he called Fisk to the stand in David Mack's Parts of a Hole. Of course Foggy couldn't incriminate Fisk because he managed to hide evidence so well that Matt couldn't find it. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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Dimetre, you brought a good example. You're right. Though I didn't mean all DD writers wrote Foggy that way. In fact, he was taken seriously as far as back in the old Lee days, and indeed during the period he was DA as well.
I suppose that I read that Marvel Team-up story while having in mind a very similar moment in a DD-related "Captain Universe" story and I felt te situation was a bit repetitive and seemed a stale joke to me... A bit as if, say, an Spiderman appearance in another Marvel (non Spidey) series was always pucntutated by a comment by Aunt May where she's afraid of catching a cold
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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What cracks me up is that "I'm sure he will be back shortly" by Foggy. Even Foggy can tell that Stilt-man is nothing to be excessively worried about. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Stilt-man is nothing to be excessively worried about. |
LOL
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: |
What cracks me up is that "I'm sure he will be back shortly" by Foggy. Even Foggy can tell that Stilt-man is nothing to be excessively worried about. |
I also love the bit where Foggy goes: "We had some Indian food earlier. I don't think the curry is agreeing with him. We've all been there."
We've all been there...
Hilarious!
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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I wonder what the clients may have thought about Matt needing so much time to deal with, hum, the stomach trouble
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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jumonji
Guardian Devil
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 636
Location: Too close to the Arctic circle
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | I wonder what the clients may have thought about Matt needing so much time to deal with, hum, the stomach trouble |
Well that kind of thing could confine someone to the bathroom for hours...
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