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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: |
Comics are business and in business yo often only have a few seconds to sell your message. |
I don't think that's the most immediate problem, especially with a quality title such as Daredevil. Look at what happens when the "business" "message" aspects of comics are stressed too much. "The MU will never be the same again!!!", "Elektra is a skrull so anyone can be a skrull w00t!", "Page 28 will change everything!".
Maybe comics hyped this way have sold more, but I don't think anyone can deny the quality of said comics has been, in the end, average or below average. |
Exactly! Talk less, produce more.
Gloria wrote: | Quote: | | Ans sinc wee are discussing what makes a good villain in the case of Mr. Fear or others, I believe two things: First, an author must take chances... Nocenti created many new DD foes during her DD run: I think this is good. Brubaker is opting for bringing old characthers back and breathe new life in them: I think it is good, too... both have taken/are taking chances to bring to Dd other enemies/situations than just the old DD vs. Bullseye, or DD vs. Kingpin scenarios, which are a tad too overused... and Kingpin and Bullsyeye would mean nothing at all,if someone had not taken the chances of. first, creating them, and second, turning them into interesting villains. So Kudos to Mr. Brubaker for re-vamping Mr. Fear. |
The Kingpin-DD-Bullseye triangle is Shakespearan, to me. But enough was enough. That's what I love most about this creative team. Yes, I love each issue, appreciate the high caliber of the work being produced each month and revel in it's atmosphere, but what bowls me over the most is the lasting impact on DD's rogues gallery and the supporting characters. I was off of comics when Miller was writing Daredevil. But now I get to be a fan of something when it's at the top of its game. 
Overlord wrote:
| Quote: | Gloria wrote:
BTW, the theatre was originated by rites in honour of Dyonisos, God of wine and, ahem,... ultimate lack of inhibition, that ould be another path to follow. Alan Moore made good use of Dyonisiac elements in "From Hell": I'm not meaning here that Powers should necessary follow Dr. Gull's gogitations or methods, just hinting at the power of old myths and cults.
I didn't read from Hell, how would that work? |
Read From Hell. It's great. The only book that I can remember, where the appendix was almost as fascinating as the book, itself.
I read From Hell right after reading the DaVinci Code, so the Freemason stuff resonated even more with me. Fortunate timing.
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Dave Wallace
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent work. Dave, how long have you been writing reveiws? Both for Silverbullet and before.
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks! I first started writing reviews around three years ago. I haven't written for anyone other than SBC. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| The Overlord wrote: | | Gloria wrote: | | Mmh... but the he could be accused of being a Psycho-Pirate Ripp-off. |
Who cares about Psycho Pirate, he 's not popular to think anyone ripped him off. |
O, well, I do care a bit for Psycho pirate: he had a capital role in an Animal Man saga which I remember fondly 
| The Overlord wrote: | | I believe in kiss (keep it simple stupid) |
I get where you are going. Yes, it should be a look that definitely makes him different from others
Since you have mentioned the Kiss, I think that their looks have been given homage in comics (i.e. The Crow). BTW, I wouldn't like a Kiss-like look wouls suit the Jester. His theme is the stage, not heavy rock.
| The Overlord wrote: | | I didn't read from Hell, how would that work? |
I can't add anything to what has been said already by Neilan, and Dave's truly excelent review... but: "read it" (now, expect some sleepless nights: I believe I got some of my white hairs from reading it!)
| The Overlord wrote: | | Gloria wrote: | | My take is this one: nowadays we have people with no acting talent whatsoever who get lead parts. Take Mark Whalberg, for instance: he plays leads even if his greatest talent is just looking good in underwear ads, while talented actors with sound stage training are hired for secondary character parts (and, these, incidentally, are the ones who save the films)... we could have Powers resented about that. |
Ah Whalberg is alright, he was good in Boogie Nights. |
Well, I'm afraid I have to differ here. To me, that someone is well casted (i.e. looks the part), well coached, well directed and well edited (i.e. the bad takes fall in the cutting room waste-basket) doesn't necessarily mean he's a good actor. But then for me "acting" means people like Alec Guinness, Charles Laughton, James Mason, Al Pacino, Daniel Auteil, Gerard Depardieu or Timothy Spall... In comparison with them I can't help thinking that the Whalbergs of our world are somewhat undeservedly promoted to play leads.
| The Overlord wrote: | | Anyway considering that Jester is supposed have reformed during the O'Neil era, he needs a really good reason to explain why is a criminal again.) |
Well, I suppose that his return to crime was mainly motivated by the following situation: a writer needed a villain for a story, checked a list, choose jester and didn't bother to know what had been going on with him in previous stories.
This, BTW, wasn't the case of Bob Gale, who had Jester leaving prison and then starting a thoroughly legit way of life, with "dot com" website and all (and the curious thing is, that going legit he was probably able to give DD more trouble than being a criminal). Unfortunately, other writers just were oblivious of that fact. IMHO, while "Decalogue" is a good story, I believe that Jester is used there completely out of character (Bendis could have used, say, Turk, to do the same)
I repeat, that was a grand review. I usually don't like to use the term "graphic novel", as I understand it is the definition used by people to frightened to admit they like plain "comics"... But in the case of works like "from Hell" even the term "Graphic Novel" falls short to properly describe it: it's a truly monumental piece of work which shakes you to the bone.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | The Overlord wrote: | | Gloria wrote: | | Mmh... but the he could be accused of being a Psycho-Pirate Ripp-off. |
Who cares about Psycho Pirate, he 's not popular to think anyone ripped him off. |
O, well, I do care a bit for Psycho pirate: he had a capital role in an Animal Man saga which I remember fondly |
I just read Morrison's run on Animal Man for the first time. Great stuff. I really need to read some of Morrison's other earlier works.
| Gloria wrote: |
I repeat, that was a grand review. I usually don't like to use the term "graphic novel", as I understand it is the definition used by people to frightened to admit they like plain "comics"... But in the case of works like "from Hell" even the term "Graphic Novel" falls short to properly describe it: it's a truly monumental piece of work which shakes you to the bone. |
Thanks! Yeah, I often see the term as a little pretentious, but I think that From Hell is one of the few works that really qualifies (along with Watchmen and V for Vendetta... Hmmm, can we see a pattern here? ). |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Wallace wrote: | | I just read Morrison's run on Animal Man for the first time. Great stuff. I really need to read some of Morrison's other earlier works. |
I haven't followed all what Morrison does, but his "Animal MAn was a good proof that there are no small characters with great writers. I also enjoyed his X-Men (which is meritorious as I dropped all mutant titles long ago and only come back when I hear that a good saga is going on)
| Dave Wallace wrote: | | ... Hmmm, can we see a pattern here? ). |
Mmmh... I see an "M", an "O", another "O", an "R"... and an "E"? something about Northampton which is touched by the Gods, it seems 
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | I haven't followed all what Morrison does, but his "Animal MAn was a good proof that there are no small characters with great writers. I also enjoyed his X-Men (which is meritorious as I dropped all mutant titles long ago and only come back when I hear that a good saga is going on) |
Ah yes, I enjoyed that. I reviewed the whole thing here (although I'm not sure that I did it justice)...:
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/118294151594085.htm
| Gloria wrote: | | Dave Wallace wrote: | | ... Hmmm, can we see a pattern here? ). |
Mmmh... I see an "M", an "O", another "O", an "R"... and an "E"? something about Northampton which is touched by the Gods, it seems |
Yep! I haven't read all of Moore's work by a long stretch, but I've recently enjoyed his Lost Girls and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, too. |
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Clayton Blind Love
Redemption
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Beautiful British Columbia
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Miller and Moore. Two names I follow fanatically.
With Moore, I have some some small holes to fill. I need to read Lost Girls. I've been waiting for a SC edition(s) or a one volume SC edition. I don't know if this will happen. It has been 2 years now? I also want to read his Miracleman work (along with Gaiman's work on the title). The legal issues surrounding Miracleman have really killed any hope I have for this material getting reprinted. So, it is off to ebay at some point to get chunks of this run at a time.
C.
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Dave Wallace
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I've never read Miracleman, so I still really hope the legalities get sorted out and it gets reprinted at some point.
And I don't think that Lost Girls will be getting a SC. I think that the format is part of the overall package - and I've read in places that the expensive nature of the three boxed HCs also functions as a deterrent to young buyers (ie. you've got to really want to read it to spend that kind of money on it!). |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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BTW, I have read Miracleman... I don't know if the deal for Spanish publishers is different than the deal for American ones, but we got it published by the late 80's early 90's. I think it was an awesome comic... there were things that reminded me of his later work, as in Supreme, only that... darker! it is a twist on the Captain Marvel family like only Moore can do it.
I get my hands on whatever thing Moore publishes, as much as budget allows. And I hope the next Extraordinary installment of Mina Murray and buddies will appear before the 22nd century  (not read Lost Girls, yet... I'm too prudish to dare, blame the nuns at my school!).
Clayton, Re Miller, he also used to be, 100% a favourite of mine, but nowadays I no longer pick a comic just because he's in. maybe because after "300" and "sin City"his comics are too testoserone filled for me? I don't know. but I like Martha Washington. To me, what he did in Daredevil and "Batman year one" are my all-time Miller favourites.
Back to topic: has anyone read the Mr. Fear Profile at Marvel? I was not aware of some of the facts, and even if I imagine that some details are from thing that happened in other series, I had never heard about the thing that happened in Law School (and, apparently, triggered it all)... Is that a retcon or any of you had heard about that before?
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Neilan
Tree of Knowledge
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 216
Location: Southampton, PA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | BTW, I have read Miracleman... I don't know if the deal for Spanish publishers is different than the deal for American ones, but we got it published by the late 80's early 90's. I think it was an awesome comic... there were things that reminded me of his later work, as in Supreme, only that... darker! it is a twist on the Captain Marvel family like only Moore can do it.
I get my hands on whatever thing Moore publishes, as much as budget allows. And I hope the next Extraordinary installment of Mina Murray and buddies will appear before the 22nd century (not read Lost Girls, yet... I'm too prudish to dare, blame the nuns at my school!). |
Granted, my comics experience is not yet as diverse as some others, but, for my money, there is no better writer in this medium. Watchmen and From Hell are my 2 absolute favorites. Top 10 was alot of fun. I found V for Vendetta to be a little dated, but I only read it for the 1st time 2 years ago when it was over 20 years old. It still was pretty good. I wish I had read it in the pre-911 days, because I'm sure that colored my take on the terrorism aspect. I haven't read Supreme yet, but just got hold of the 2 trades. Two months ago, I just missed scoring a copy of Lost Girls at 50% off. That would have been a real coup, but it was not to be. I've heard alot of great things about Miracleman, but it is so hard (and expensive) to track down individual issues. When the WildC.A.T.S. trade came out about a month ago, I read in the solicits that Moore is the one who created the villain from Brubaker's Sleeper series, TAO. This guy is just amazing and amazingly prolific. What can you tell me about his ABC work, Tom Strong, Promethea, etc?
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Dave Wallace
Paradiso
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1074
Location: Birmingham, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | I get my hands on whatever thing Moore publishes, as much as budget allows. And I hope the next Extraordinary installment of Mina Murray and buddies will appear before the 22nd century (not read Lost Girls, yet... I'm too prudish to dare, blame the nuns at my school!). |
If you're prudish, it's probably best to stay away! It's very explicit, and that might put you off. Also, it is very expensive.
I'm not sure it's Moore's best work, but then I've only read it once - I quite often find that his real strengths reveal themselves when you go back for multiple reads. Maybe I should give it another shot.
| Gloria wrote: | | Re Miller, he also used to be, 100% a favourite of mine, but nowadays I no longer pick a comic just because he's in. maybe because after "300" and "sin City"his comics are too testoserone filled for me? I don't know. but I like Martha Washington. To me, what he did in Daredevil and "Batman year one" are my all-time Miller favourites. |
I know what you mean. I think Miller's recent stuff doesn't stand up so well when you look at his back catalogue (but then who could match DKR, Year:One, Ronin, Daredevil etc). His Hard Boiled was good, I liked the first few Sin City stories, and I like 300 to an extent - but DK2 and particularly All-Star Batman haven't quite lived up to the legacy. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| Neilan wrote: | | What can you tell me about his ABC work, Tom Strong, Promethea, etc? |
I can tell you that, on the whole, I enjoyed it huguely: I think I' followed all the series. Even the stuff not written by Moore, like the Greyshirt miniseries.
Some comics creators working for the Superhero Majors (Marvel and DC) complain about being tied to previous continuities, but to me the remedy for this complains is easy: just create something new! But no, they prefer to forget the story or the charactherization of a hero, or create an "alternate Universe story" where the inevitable result is that everyone ends in mincemeat ("Oh! I couldn't kill them in regular continuity, but since this is an alternate universe version, I can bring back the dead and kill all the living. and then destroy the multiverse. Bwah-ha-Hah!").
I don't mean by this that Alternate Universes' stories should be banned... just the godawful ones , but then I think how brilliant are Busiek's "Astro City" or Moore's ABC universe... true, they are very, very referential to other existing characthers/universes, but they start anew and everything is possible there... Greyshirt is very inspired in Will Eisner's Spirit, Tom Strong takes elements of the Tarzan, Doc Savage or Fantastic Four Mythos -to name just afew-, "Top Ten" reminds me of "Hill Street Blues and "Patlabor", The Confessor and the Altar Boy are a nod to Batman and Robin, with a nice twist.
Of course, creating a whole new world (as in the Moore and Busiek examples cited) is riskier than, say, creating an "Ultimate" universe where you have the "same character", but one is not "enslaved by continuity"... even if one just rips off the main character, friends, enemies, relatives, relationships and stories from the good old 616 continuity.. that is, a new universe is created to photocopy the old (There are some relevant changes though: older characters wear ponytails, and youngsters wear piercings and a waist-low pants with the underwear on public sight)
Back to the ABC comics: Promethea is possibly (or, at least, so I think) the most personal of them all... Seemingly inspirated in a Wonder Woman, it eovlves into a fascinating -and very entertaining- reflection on what fiction is, and the power of symbols over our perception of the world: in short, i is the banner comic of Moore's coveted "ideaspace" concept I would have never said I had fun reading a comic filled with Jungian references, but there it is... Promethea is also, possibly a sketchwork of Moore's intended Grimorium
| Dave Wallace wrote: |
If you're prudish, it's probably best to stay away! It's very explicit, and that might put you off. Also, it is very expensive.
I'm not sure it's Moore's best work, but then I've only read it once - I quite often find that his real strengths reveal themselves when you go back for multiple reads. Maybe I should give it another shot. |
I must say, that, having read other works by Moore, I don't think I would be too shocked by it .. Even if the idea of a story mostly concerned with erotica isn't my cup of tea, I'm sure that, being Moore, there must be much more than just the "Penthouse"-type of story for boys to read alone. I think that the price is far more deterring to me ,ha.
And, yes, any book of Moore is even more enjoyed in the second or thrid read... It is almost as, once you have digested" the first read, you are able to appreciate new flavours which you hand't noticed before: his writing is so incredibly multi-layered that there's something always new popping at you.
| Dave Wallace wrote: |
I know what you mean. I think Miller's recent stuff doesn't stand up so well when you look at his back catalogue (but then who could match DKR, Year:One, Ronin, Daredevil etc). His Hard Boiled was good, I liked the first few Sin City stories, and I like 300 to an extent - but DK2 and particularly All-Star Batman haven't quite lived up to the legacy. |
Yes, I think that, right now, he's mostly living over the better work he did in the past... I'm almost surprised how some "first-rate-media" critics (i.e. newspapers and magazines out of fanboy circles) hail his more recent work and almost diss the old one, which is ages better: it is like watching a band, which you have enjoyed in a small concert, perform big time in MTV, and you get teh feeling that their misic was fresher and stronger when they were not so well-known.
BTW, regardless that I don't dig most of his recent output, I think it's Ok that Miller gets recognition and can make a good living out of doing comics: To me it's all well deserved for all the enjoyment he brought me (and I'd rather have an author enjoying the fruits of his work than a greedy corporation who just exploits the talent of others)
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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