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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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 Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
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In fairness, this is Bendis' Kingpin.
For instance, Frank Miller's or Ed Brubaker's Kingpin, while still a mosbter and a son-of-a-bad-mother, is somewhat more dignified: He's the ruler of an empire of crime, and he sure is a B*stard, but he's an emperor. And there's this Achilles' heel that is his love for Vanessa. There's some Shakesperean grandeur about Kingpin that other villains lack.
I haven't been able to find the exact quote, but someone here said (about either the whole "devil Takes a ride" saga or just #93) that, in spite of their absolute enmity, and hate for each other Murdock and Fisk treated each other with respect (something Spidey doesn't do in BiB)... maybe it is on behalf of Vanessa (a woman both men respect).
No, he's not a noble villain, but a fascinating and multilayered one
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | 
How noble! |
I think the problem here is the definition of noble everyone's using. I think I was thinking "noble" as in dignified or something. You and THE OVERLORD! are obviously defining "noble" as "entirely innocent of all crimes and actually not really a villian at all. in fact, when you get right down to it actually a kick ass hero who runs around saving kittens from fires and stuff".
Good work kids. Now the Overlord's complaint is that Bru didn't make the Matador a hero. Weeeee!
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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ha ha. You liked it, admit it.
Hmm, anyway no. That's not my definition of noble.
Yours is (as you confirmed with this) "not a drooling psychopath". |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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What a fulgid example of nobility! |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | ha ha. You liked it, admit it.
Hmm, anyway no. That's not my definition of noble.
Yours is (as you confirmed with this) "not a drooling psychopath". |
Just for the funnies: who would you consider a noble villian?
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Just for the funnies, could you be more specific about the nobility of Kingpin?
So far you've just said "he's not a drooling psychopath", "you and the Overlord (?) obviously (?) think that being a noble villain is [insert voluntary misinterpretation]". |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | Just for the funnies, could you be more specific about the nobility of Kingpin?
So far you've just said "he's not a drooling psychopath", "you and the Overlord (?) obviously (?) think that being a noble villain is [insert voluntary misinterpretation]". |
Well, for one thing his relationship with DD, or more properly Murdock has always been more a battle of wills type thing. Kingpin is just that. The Kingpin of crime. He doesn't go around trying to blow up the world or anything. He's just made crime his business and he conducts it that way. Both examples you threw up were Kingpin reacting to other criminals who opposed him. He's not taking hostages for a buck, he's just keeping the rank and file in line. You and Overlord keep saying "but he's a criminal!". Of course he is but that doesn't mean he can't be noble about it. He has a code of ethics and he stands by it. He crushes people who stand in his way. What else is a Kingpin of crime to do? I mean, he could have killed that guy. All he did was break his legs. Seems like that's pretty noble, you know, for a villin.
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JC
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Why aren't you laughing? |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You and Overlord keep saying "but he's a criminal!". Of course he is but that doesn't mean he can't be noble about it. He has a code of ethics and he stands by it. He crushes people who stand in his way. |
Well. Now it's clear.
But this is where our opinions become incompatible. I don't pretend that there could exist a way for the "Kingpin" to be a good "Kingpin" while at the same time being noble about it.
A crime lord, a big boss has to crush whoever breaks the ranks, whoever questions his authority. Otherwise he wouldn't last long as crime lord. And for the same reason he has to be merciless about it, even resorting to blackmail, to threaten the families/loved ones of his antagonists (which is the main reason why I'll never consider him noble).
P.S. I'm speaking for myself, I don't care if the Overlord is sharing my views or not. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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To put it in another way: Richard III was a king, hence an aristocrat, hence a nobleman... but hardly a noble man.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: | | You and Overlord keep saying "but he's a criminal!". Of course he is but that doesn't mean he can't be noble about it. He has a code of ethics and he stands by it. He crushes people who stand in his way. |
Well. Now it's clear.
But this is where our opinions become incompatible. I don't pretend that there could exist a way for the "Kingpin" to be a good "Kingpin" while at the same time being noble about it.
A crime lord, a big boss has to crush whoever breaks the ranks, whoever questions his authority. Otherwise he wouldn't last long as crime lord. And for the same reason he has to be merciless about it, even resorting to blackmail, to threaten the families/loved ones of his antagonists (which is the main reason why I'll never consider him noble).
P.S. I'm speaking for myself, I don't care if the Overlord is sharing my views or not. |
But surely your position now is that a noble villian can't exist.
| Gloria wrote: |
To put it in another way: Richard III was a king, hence an aristocrat, hence a nobleman... but hardly a noble man.
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Strangely I was thinking of Richard III as a good example of another noble villian.
I'm beginning to think that you guys are just biased against villians.
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Well, even though he's regal and speaks in blank verse,
I've got a hunch about Richard (so I won't say else)
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
Underboss
Joined: 08 Jun 2006
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
But surely your position now is that a noble villian can't exist.
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Hmm. No.
My position is (and was) that a crime lord type noble villain cannot exist. |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | james castle wrote: |
But surely your position now is that a noble villian can't exist.
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Hmm. No.
My position is (and was) that a crime lord type noble villain cannot exist. |
I hate to be difficult here but could you please name a villian who you think is noble?
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
I hate to be difficult here but could you please name a villian who you think is noble? |
I'm going to inappropriately jump in with Zoom and Black Adam. 
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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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| Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone who thinks Fisk is in anyway 'noble' should go read DD#300 where he has his 'empire' torn away from him and he stands revealed for what he really is. It's one thing to have a cool, cold calculating demeanour while you're a 'Kingpin', but working with whatever questionable 'ethics' that entails doesn't make him noble. Take all that away from him, as happens to him in #300, and he's clearly revealed as anything but.
As for 'noble' bad guys, well Wolfmans Torpedo easily falls into that category. Even Namor, who plays the bad guy in DD #7 and countless FF stories, has nobility pouring out of him.
Probaby lots more in the Marvel Universe, although by definition being the 'bad guy' their sure to be in the minority. Fisk ain't one of them. |
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