Daredevil Message Board

Gloria · Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject:

When Miller wrote Maggie's prayer in "born Again", where she talks about her "past sins" I imagined that, at some time, she was a woman of easy virtue (Whether a prostitute or just a "fun-loving" gal), the kind of woman we could imagine as a boxer's moll... At some point she fell off her horse on the way to Damascus and changed her ways so much that she became a nun... Oh well, that was my theory before the Jack Murdock Mini-series... Now we have to wonder how Maggie managed to date Jack without Mother Superior being aware of it (now that's a feat!).

Admittedly, life was easier when, in the old continuity, Jack Murdock was just a widower.

Slightly off-topic: I wonder if the author's ever read "One Pound Godspell" a manga by Rumiko Takahashi where a nun tries to make a champ out of a hopeless boxer.
_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

Francesco · Underboss Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1307

pbblair · Flying Blind Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 37

Hi all,

I'm happy to see that this is such a hot topic! At the end of the day, I think my biggest problem with revisiting origins is that explaining things is not, in itself, interesting. And introducing retcon elements as coincidence is contrived and eye-rolling (Turk and Matt's dad together, for instance, or the oft-cited Typhoid Mary as girl-falling-out-of-window). Often, though, the explanation is not nearly as satisfying as the mystery that existed before. Think about how cool Elektra was when the stories weren't told from her perspective, and how silly they got once that started.

Another example: the mystery of Matt's mother. Prior to this mini, there were all sorts of tantalizing options. Did Maggie have to leave the nunnery to give birth out in the mountains? Did Matt's dad follow her there? Did he talk her our of leaving him there? Was he a young priest at the time? Is Matt not even HIS kid??? WHO KNOWS? The point is that the explanation chosen is pedestrian and uninteresting compared to the bazillion alternatives previously left to the imagination. I just want the best story possible, and I'll tell you that this isn't it.

On the topic of "Father," let me just say that it reminded me of the DD "Sir" storyline, and that was reason enough to dislike it. And again, more interesting options existed for the blind man's future, story-wise, so why even go down that road?

Gloria · Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject:

Ditto, as Kirk Douglas pointed in "The Bad and The Beautiful", suggestion often works better than the actual thing.

...And within the myriad possibilities that mistery allows, it could well be that Maggie might not be Matt's mother, after all (Matt has been sometimes fooled by a heartbeat) Rolling Eyes

_________________
Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás

"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo"

harryhausen · Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:51 am Post subject:

You know, perhaps I’m just playing (dare)devil’s advocate now, but I don’t think the Battlin’ Jack mini takes too much away from the mystery of Jack and Maggie’s early relationship.

I recall (don’t have either issue in front of me right now, sorry) that all we see is Maggie showing up in her habit, etc. with an infant Matt and dumping him on Jack, saying they made a mistake, etc. No idea how old Matt is (he looks to be under a year, but older than, say, 6 or 7 months – of course, it’s a comic and I’ve always thought that most comic artists don’t draw children very well – more like short adults). Josie references Maggie, acknowledging that they were a known ‘item.’ Later, when Matt’s older (elementary school, junior high?), he comes home and finds a drunk Jack holding a letter from Maggie. Now, it seems that the letter ignited the drinking binge he’s on, but he could have just gotten out and reread an old letter – no way to know for sure.

Point is, DD:BJ doesn’t seem to presume (so far, caveat) to dispel much more. Jack and Maggie could have been lovers before she turned to the church, she could have slipped as a nun (wow, Jack!), or most of the other possibilities others of you have mentioned above. The chronology is still fuzzy and still open to interpretation.

I’m a Catholic school washout (but boy is my handwriting good!), so maybe some of you know this: Do nuns ever take in “fallen women” – pregnant and in trouble – deliver the children and then allow the women (Mary Magdalene-style) to become nuns? Are they tainted forever and thus disallowed from joining the ranks? [I’m imagining months of fasting and chanting prayers, culminating in a week of meditation and milk baths, but that’s just me mixing up Catholicism and King Arthur, I reckon.]

If the above is possible, I’ve come to think that perhaps Matt was born in the convent, Maggie became a nun, and Matt was raised in an orphanage overseen by the nuns in the first months maybe? Then Maggie, either because she thought it would be better for Matt to be with his father (seems slim) or because she knew it would be too hard for her to have contact with him everyday and not be able to acknowledge that he’s her son (likelier), took him to Jack. She would know that she could still keep tabs on him (them both being in Hell’s Kitchen), but the acute pain of being so near and still so separate would be dulled. At least, that’s my current, personal solution.

I think pbblair has a good point about origins and coincidence, above. I also like Gloria’s idea about the boxer’s moll sort of gal. Maybe Maggie made her decision to become a nun not yet knowing that she was already pregnant and the sisters were uncharacteristically understanding about a nun with a bun in the oven (I couldn’t resist the crass reference, the internal rhyme was too tempting), taking her in, etc.

Also (and sorry to ramble), I find it interesting that no one has mentioned (at least here) the rampant stereotyping in Matt’s background: Irish descent, Hell’s Kitchen, alcoholism, Catholicism, nuns, boxing, etc. It’s like a dark Frank Capra movie. I love it, myself, but if this were another sort of character, would folks be up in arms about these predictable details? Maybe Matt likes boiled cabbage? Did he lose any of his forebears in the Potato Famine? I bet he’s got an uncle who is a cop and/or firefighter. The whole family are Jets and Yankee fans who hate the Giants and Mets. On and on . . .

Forrest · Lowlife Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1439

james castle · Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject:

Maggie is wearing the nun outfit when she drops Matt off? That makes no sense.

Good luck to everyone trying to piece that silliness together.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

Gloria · Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject:

Forrest · Lowlife Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1439

Francesco · Underboss Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1307

No! It makes no sense because a nun cannot abandon a baby, because she's catholic, and a catholic cannot do that.

I mean, it's a law of the universe. On the par with gravity and electromagnetism.

james castle · Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject:

I may have to read this this just so I can mock it with reckless abandon. For now I'm assuming it goes like this:

1. Maggie is a Catholic.
2. Maggie has sex with Jack.
3. Maggie gets pregnant.
4. Maggie feels guilty.
5. Maggie becomes a nun and has Matt.
or
5. Maggie has Matt and then becomes a nun.
6. Maggie drops the Matt off with Jack.

This senario isn't at all like any of the plots Gloria has pointed to. The interplay between 4, 5 and 6 just doesn't make sense. Is she pregnant when she becomes a nun? Does she become a nun while she has a new born? If so why does she have to give up Matt? That is, surely if she was allowed to become a nun while pregnant or while she had a child she'd be allowed to keep it? Are we to believe the other nuns were like "alright, you can have a baby for a while but then it's gotta go"?

Battling Maggie Murdock Issue #1:
Mother Superior: Okay, Maggie, that's enough of that baby.
Maggie: But you let me become a nun when I had him.
MS: We now realize that that was weird and wrong.
Maggie: But I love him.
MS: Yeah, yeah, but you gotta find it a new home.
Maggie: Like where?
MS: An orphanage.
Maggie: Don't we run orphanages?
MS: Um, well, we do but....
Maggie: Why can't he go there?
MS: Doesn't he have a father who got you pregnant out of wedlock?
Maggie: Well, I guess so.
MS: You should leave the child with him.
Maggie: Really? He's a bit of a sinner. Obviously.
MS: So?
Maggie: So we're a church. Shouldn't we care about that?
MS: Mmmmmm. Nah.
Maggie: Really?
MS: And wear your habit when you drop the child off.
The Watcher: And thus begins our tale of, like, the world's worst nuns.
_________________
JC

So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing?

Forrest · Lowlife Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1439

Forrest · Lowlife Joined: 07 Dec 2004 Posts: 1439

Francesco · Underboss Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 1307

Hmm, Castle. The sad thing is that the scenario you described makes absolutely sense.
I myself, could tell you even more monstrous facts regarding nuns and their peculiar way of being catholic.

Gloria · Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject:

The Message Board is currently in read-only mode, as the software is now out of date. Several features and pages have been removed. If/When I get time I intend to re-launch the board with updated software.