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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: |
| Forrest wrote: |
Have you read either issue, yet? |
Well, no. |
P.S. I'd highly recommend checking out the story. As neither creator has worked on DD before (to the best of my knowledge), I was very hopeful but fairly skeptical, before I read #1. Now, I must say that the plot, prose and art are put together very well. I'd recommend this story to any comic fan, including those who are not into DD or superhero comics in general.
Any plot can sound silly if you just read the spoilers. E.g. Around the time of O'Neil's DD, can you imagine how the spoilers for Born Again may have sounded? "It turns out that Karen Page is a porn star and junkie in South America. [. . .] Foggy steals Matt's woman. [. . .] Then, this delusional super soldier with a red-white-and-blue tattoo on his face takes pills, flies into Hell's Kitchen in a helicopter and ..."
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Francesco
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Any plot can sound silly if you just read the spoilers. E.g. Around the time of O'Neil's DD, can you imagine how the spoilers for Born Again may have sounded? "It turns out that Karen Page is a porn star and junkie in South America. [. . .] Foggy steals Matt's woman. [. . .] Then, this delusional super soldier with a red-white-and-blue tattoo on his face takes pills, flies into Hell's Kitchen in a helicopter and ..." |
Hm. Good point there, Forrest. |
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Forrest
Lowlife
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | I could accept the fact that the guy Matt saved as a youngster was in fact a child abuser.
Like Clayton said, it is not like Matt can tell he is saving a good person or a bad person. Even if he could, that would mean nothing. He saved a person. That's what makes him a hero.
That said, the thing stinks because -that- is presented as the whole point of the miniseries, when actually, if you think about it, it's no big deal. |
The point of DD:Father was the positive impact that Jack has on Matt's life, the negative impact Maggie's father had on her, etc. The identity of the man Matt saved from the truck was a footnote in the overall thesis of the story. I think it's a shame that this has become such a distraction among some fans because I think the story was done quite well.
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Francesco
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think it's a shame that this has become such a distraction among some fans because I think the story was done quite well. |
Ok, but whose fault is it? Anyone who read Miller (or even Stan Lee!) knew about the positive impact Jack had on his son.
That story, on the other hand, promised to "rock DD down to his origins" "have a sense-shattering finale" and was dragged half a year with the promise of having a great conclusion.
So I wouldn't blame the readers if they were expecting something different from "the positive impact that Jack has on Matt's life". |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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So the postive effect Jack had on Matt's life is supposed to be somehow enhanced when you consider the negative effect the molesting father had on the daughter? Jack didn't molest Matt! Hurrah! Go Jack!
As for Maggie (Matt's mom): the idea that she would sleep with Jack and then feel so bad about it that she would "solve" the situation by doing something worse is just ridiculous. Or maybe I just don't get it because I'm not a Catholic. Maybe all Catholics fix things by making them crazy worse and then lying to the Church. Was Maggie under the impression that god didn't know what she was up to?
It all ridiculous. Alas, as long as Marvel keep selling illogical plots as "secrets revealed!" and people keep buying them it won't stop.
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Forrest
Lowlife
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Francesco wrote: | | Quote: | | I think it's a shame that this has become such a distraction among some fans because I think the story was done quite well. |
Ok, but whose fault is it? |
I am not suggesting it is the fault of the readers. You gave good reason why it is the fault of the Marvel hype machine and I agree with you. Still, I think it is a shame. That's all.
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Forrest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | As for Maggie (Matt's mom): the idea that she would sleep with Jack and then feel so bad about it that she would "solve" the situation by doing something worse is just ridiculous. |
You know what else is ridiculous? The idea that a man would have delusions of being in an ancient Roman arena and these delusions propel him to kill innocent people. Or how about a man whose skin pigment induces mind control. How about a blind man who has a radar sense and dresses up in a devil suit to patrol the streets of Hell's Kitchen with his billy club.
How is any of that any less ridiculous than a young woman feeling so traumatized by her sin that she leaves the results of the sin in the dust, fakes ignorance and becomes a nun?
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Francesco
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How is any of that any less ridiculous than a young woman feeling so traumatized by her sin that she leaves the results of the sin in the dust, fakes ignorance and becomes a nun? |
Well, I suppose it's because that doesn't help the cause of "bashing the ongoing miniseries we're not reading anyway". |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Forrest wrote: | | james castle wrote: | | As for Maggie (Matt's mom): the idea that she would sleep with Jack and then feel so bad about it that she would "solve" the situation by doing something worse is just ridiculous. |
You know what else is ridiculous? The idea that a man would have delusions of being in an ancient Roman arena and these delusions propel him to kill innocent people. Or how about a man whose skin pigment induces mind control. How about a blind man who has a radar sense and dresses up in a devil suit to patrol the streets of Hell's Kitchen with his billy club.
How is any of that any less ridiculous than a young woman feeling so traumatized by her sin that she leaves the results of the sin in the dust, fakes ignorance and becomes a nun? |
Apples and oranges. The amazingly witty things you've pointed out (is he talking about Purple man!!?!) are "ridiculous" in a "not very realistic" kind of way. The real world doesn't have superheroes. We get it. Good job.
That aside though, once you accept that people have superpowers and are heroes and villians and stuff it's still important for them to adhere to a coherant logic. I mean, what if all 24 pages of every issue was DD doing completely random things? Page 1: DD eats a live baby. Page 2: DD opens a day car. Page 3: DD goes on a hot air balloon ride. Page 4: DD tells Turk that he's never been on a hot air ballon. If such a comic came out you could say " well, that's ridiculous but you know what else is ridiculous? The idea that a man would have delusions of being in an ancient Roman arena and these delusions propel him to kill innocent people. Or how about a man whose skin pigment induces mind control. How about a blind man who has a radar sense and dresses up in a devil suit to patrol the streets of Hell's Kitchen with his billy club."
The presence of superheroes doesn't entirely wash away any semblence of logic. The problem with the Maggie thing is that all her actions don't even make internal sense. She Catholic. Okay. But then she has sex. Okay, that makes sense because lots of Catholics actually have pre-marital sex. So she's Catholic but not, like, super Catholic. But then she feels insanely guilty about it because she's super Catholic. Wait, I thought she wasn't super Catholic. So she decides to abandon her child (super unCatholic) to become a nun (super Catholic). Meh. Crap.
Whatever, I guess we can agree to disagree. I can just hardly wait until a FIXER mini comes out (in which we find out that the Fixer is actually, let's say, the Owl). No doubt you'll be first in line to buy it. I'll probably skip that one too.
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JC
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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When I first learned about Maggie, Miller told us she knew Matt well, and he suggested she could be Matt's mother (and only from Matt hearing her heartbeat "jumping")... But then Miller preferred not to tell us much more, possibly believing that a suggestion was more powerful than describing a point-per-point origin. (I have my own "origin theory" LOL)
He was probably wise, for now that a mini-series tries to give us an "official version" of "what really happened" we end discussing the sex of angels.
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | When I first learned about Maggie, Miller told us she knew Matt well, and he suggested she could be Matt's mother (and only from Matt hearing her heartbeat "jumping")... But then Miller preferred not to tell us much more, possibly believing that a suggestion was more powerful than describing a point-per-point origin. (I have my own "origin theory" LOL)
He was probably wise, for now that a mini-series tries to give us an "official version" of "what really happened" we end discussing the sex of angels. |
Male.
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JC
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Francesco
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:35 am Post subject: |
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Well, it should be noted that:
| Quote: | | How is any of that any less ridiculous than a young woman feeling so traumatized by her sin that she leaves the results of the sin in the dust, fakes ignorance and becomes a nun? |
makes perfect sense.
It's pointless to say: "Well, she's a Catholic, and a Catholic is supposed to do blah blah blah in order to blah blah blah", because that's not how human psyche works.
A person, especially a person who's not supposed to be the hero of the story, makes errors. Sometimes makes worse errors in attempt to amend to previous ones. Sometimes a person refuses to admit mistakes done in the past, adopting a convenient vision of reality. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| james castle wrote: | | Gloria wrote: | | ...we end discussing the sex of angels. |
Male. |
Which brings to mind: was Maggie always a woman?
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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Francesco
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| That would mean that at a certain point of her life, she's messed with her own gender. And that would make her a "sub-catholic". |
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harryhausen
Playing to the Camera
Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Posts: 129
Location: U$A
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| Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Or a Cardinal. |
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