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Frank Miller, Elektra, and the New Avengers - speculation
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rgj
Hardcore


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
I hope not. For me, Chichester is the only post-Miller writer who could succesfully incorporate Elektra into a DD run.


I totally disagree. As much as I loved early Chichester (and his portrayal of the senses), the whole premise of what happened with Elektra in FFG is ridiculous. Elektra was not "infected" with evil. She took that path. Manipulated by the Hand? Sure. But, "infected"? That's crap. With that logic, Matt really isn't a good, noble man. He's just infected with happy thoughts.


rgj
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Francesco
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Joined: 08 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james castle wrote:
Francesco wrote:
It's the same old story, Forrest:
Which one is worse, having Elektra being written in a bad way and forgetting about that, or having Elektra being written in a bad way and come up with a moronic explaination about that?

Which is worse, accepting a past error or have it covered with another error?
I think it's the latter.


You only say that because you're a skrull.


You only say that because you were the one wearing Ronin's duds.
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D


Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
Forrest wrote:
I hope not. For me, Chichester is the only post-Miller writer who could succesfully incorporate Elektra into a DD run.


I totally disagree. As much as I loved early Chichester (and his portrayal of the senses), the whole premise of what happened with Elektra in FFG is ridiculous. Elektra was not "infected" with evil. She took that path. Manipulated by the Hand? Sure. But, "infected"? That's crap. With that logic, Matt really isn't a good, noble man. He's just infected with happy thoughts.


rgj


I vaguely agree that the whole "infected" thing is a bit poor. But you can read around it. She chose to be evil and that's what "grew" the evil inside her in the first place. Then a bit of the evil (that she chose) got left in the cyborg dude's brain. The bit about it getting back into her (through a flesh wound) is a bit crap though.

Other than that, I liked when she came back. I mean, aside from the infected stuff her coming off the mountain all bald and badass was cool. Admit it. Admit it!
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rgj
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will admit that she looked cool bald headed (looks better than when she's a Skrull, that's for sure). And, I'll even acknowledge that her motives to come down her mountain (or, wherever she was) made sense. To help Matt.

But, the inevitable happened. It turned to crap. Marvel wanted her to be a anti-hero. So they made up this "infection" crap. And, here we are about a decade and a half later and we get the Skrulektra story.

You've said before that the Elektra Saga isn't the end all of storytelling. Maybe not. But, it was a heck of a ride and it gave the DD mythos a much needed kick in the butt. And, guess what, to THIS day, it's still the best Elektra story ever. I have not read a "good" Elektra story since she (or the Skrull) came back.

The Elektra Saga was Elektra's "Born Again." It was about her redemption, her making it through to the other side, thanks to her one true love. Her final ascent to the mountain top was her knocking the heavy bag off it's chain.

What Marvel and, sadly, dear ol' D.G. Chichester (and any other writer who wrote "Elektra") did was gut that story. It made her resurection worthless.

But, whatever.

Long live, Skrulektra.

rgj
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james castle
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I secretly hope that it turns out that Elektra was always a Skrull just so rgj and Miller get super pissed off.
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Jim B.
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So is Elektra supposed to be a Skrull since the time of her return in Fall From Grace or is she just been replaced by a Skrull in the very recent present? If so where is the real Elektra now? Is she still dead or hanging around in the snowy north with the Chaste unaware that her doppleganger is running around in the world?

Actually ignore those above questions as I could care less anymore. It's stuff like this that makes me wonder why I even bother to read comics anymore at my age. At least why I bother to read mainstream superhero stuff anymore. Rolling Eyes

Wow this is just beyond bad storytelling. I know it's a comic book and it's not real and comics are for kids and blah blah blah but this is embarressing. I thought it was bad when over at DC you found out the reason Jason Todd (Robin 2) is alive was because Superboy Prime punched a dimensional wall a few times because it would make things "right" again, and the shock waves went out and brought him back from the grave but this may be even worse than that! That's a hard thing to top I have to say! Shocked
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Dave Wallace
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim B. wrote:
So is Elektra supposed to be a Skrull since the time of her return in Fall From Grace or is she just been replaced by a Skrull in the very recent present? If so where is the real Elektra now? Is she still dead or hanging around in the snowy north with the Chaste unaware that her doppleganger is running around in the world?

It's not clear yet - I guess we'll find out eventually.
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Forrest
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439

PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
It's the same old story, Forrest:
Which one is worse, having Elektra being written in a bad way and forgetting about that, or having Elektra being written in a bad way and come up with a moronic explaination about that?

Which is worse, accepting a past error or have it covered with another error?
I think it's the latter.


If a new story revisits old stories that were written poorly, I want the new story to be outstanding, so there is a reason for bringing up the old stuff. However, if the new story is terrible, then what is the point of incorporating poor stories from the past? Doesn't that just make a bad situation worse?

I'd say leave alone previous flaws in continuity, characterization, etc., until a really good story can deal with those issues. Or, just forget about it altogether.
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EightiesCartoon
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Joined: 18 Oct 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim B. wrote:
I thought it was bad when over at DC you found out the reason Jason Todd (Robin 2) is alive was because Superboy Prime punched a dimensional wall a few times because it would make things "right" again, and the shock waves went out and brought him back from the grave but this may be even worse than that! That's a hard thing to top I have to say! Shocked


Skrulektra punched herself a few times and brought herself into being.

I'm with harryhausen a few pages back, all this Skrull/Aliens/"They're back! From the 60's!" pap is so so so very boring and over done.
Create some new characters PLEASE (a la Milla)
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I don't know. I think this story still has the potential to be fairly interesting. Whether it'll live up to that potential is another story...
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Francesco
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:
Oh, I don't know. I think this story still has the potential to be fairly interesting. Whether it'll live up to that potential is another story...


The same could be said for the previous marvel events. They all had the potential to be interesting, and ended up being a waste of energies. I'm not falling for it again.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francesco wrote:
The same could be said for the previous marvel events. They all had the potential to be interesting, and ended up being a waste of energies. I'm not falling for it again.

I know what you're saying, yeah. It happens a lot, and there's nothing to suggest that this is going to be any different.

For those who are interested, I've got a review of the latest issue of New Avengers here: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/118433285085840.htm
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Forrest
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave Wallace wrote:

For those who are interested, I've got a review of the latest issue of New Avengers here: http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/118433285085840.htm


Dave Wallace wrote:
However, the old Bendis writing tics are still in evidence: referring to storylines by their published titles, making unnecessary references to his other Marvel work (in this case, it's a Mighty Avengers tie-in which you'll have to read the recap page to make any sense of, as it isn't explained in the story), and using twenty words when one would suffice. If this story had been the first half of an issue (and it could easily have been halved in length without losing much in the way of detail), it might have been more enjoyable, but it doesn't really feel like there's enough story here to justify a full-length issue being spent on it.

[. . .]suggesting that Bendis is letting the story dictate his characters' behaviour, rather than the other way round.


This is probably the best explanation I have ever read for why I stopped reading Bendis's Marvel work. Razz

It seemed like your review pointed out so many negative aspects of the book that I am surprised you still gave it three bullets.
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
This is probably the best explanation I have ever read for why I stopped reading Bendis's Marvel work. Razz
Thanks!

Forrest wrote:
It seemed like your review pointed out so many negative aspects of the book that I am surprised you still gave it three bullets.

I know, I had some similar comments from my fellow reviewers - but I still like Yu's art a lot, and the story still has some potential.... It's not a great score, but I haven't given up on New Avengers yet either.
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harryhausen
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Joined: 20 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ve warmed up to this whole New Avengers thing since my initial fears about pulling DD into have been somewhat quelled.

As goofy as it all seems at times, I have to say that I like that fact that Bendis is running amok in the Marvel U. Using all sorts of things from the past in new(ish) ways – Skrulls, a relatively wide pantheon of sometimes-forgotten heroes, lots of Silver Age creations – is interesting. Even – dare I say it? – fun.

Also, I recently read all the NA books straight through and have to say that (silly as this is) I found it heartwarming to read the early stuff with Cap. Now that he’s “dead,” I appreciate him in a new way. It’s cool to see him and Tony be close – way back when heroes fought villains. Like watching an old Bulls game and seeing Pippen and Jordan on the court together. Satisfying.

Sure, he writes characters with some annoying tics, but I can forgive that, for the most part. [Man, I wish he would let Spidey be a little tougher, though – even JMS lets Spidey be scary sometimes.] It’s talky, but I’m down with that. I’m also amazed at how much people on other message boards can’t seem to follow the events in these comics. It’s pretty clear, most of the time - I mean, it’s not Thomas Pynchon. I should stop looking at solicits and reading the posts about books I’m buying, I guess.

Point is, if I approach this in a different way from, say, the way I think about Daredevil, I can get into it. I’ll allow, though, that I’m relatively new to Bendis. Maybe he’ll start to grate on me soon.

Oh, and my last bit of blasphemy – I think he does a better job with some of these characters and this large-scale plotting than he did with DD. I got pretty tired of some of his DD stuff. Plus, talk about issues feeling slight – you can read whole Bendis DD arcs in under an hour sometimes.

Even if the comics left something to be desired, my Anarchist heart gives props to someone who would Disassemble and depower so many folks in one bold Scarlet stroke, too.

Skrulls, man, can you dig it?
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