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Pete
Fall From Grace
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 417
Location: Liverpool, UK
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 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Gloria wrote: | | I even keep my "grey armoured DD suit" issues!) |
Yeah, I've kept hold of these as well. You never know when you might run out of toilet paper at an inoppurtune moment.
As for the Skrull/Elektra thing, as others have said, the only Elektra stories that count were by Miller. Anyone with sense realises this. Even Kevin Smith, who on the whole hasn't, made sure to stay clear of Elektra. The rest, including this, is just window dressing. On the whole I find I can ignore the silly things that Marvel sometimes get themselves involved in. Clones don't spoil my enjoyment of Lee/Ditko Spiderman. Skrulls won't spoil my enjoyment of Millers initial run with Elektra.
It is funny to see themselves digging deeper holes in characters long term continuity. Funny, but easily ignored.
The cream will always rise to the top. In years to come people will still talk and write about Lee, Ditko, Miller. No one will give jack about Bendis' silly Skrull/Electra attempt at 'event'. You don't really need a Skrull to wipe out all of Elektras post Miller history. For some it was never on the radar in the first place.
Now the Kree/Skrull war by Thomas, thats another thing. |
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Gloria
Redemption
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 711
Location: Suburbia around Barcelona
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Well, you're absolutely right. Alan Moore, when asked about the poor film adaptations of his work, resigns himself to the certainty that his work in comics will still be there ("I made my comic... they make their film")
Good works by good authors remain in memory, the rest, as you say, is toilet paper (though the coated paper used today is more uncomfortable to use than the offset paper used in the old times  )
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Gloria
Devuélveme el rosario de mi madre y quédate con todo lo demás
"Para la cuesta arriba quiero mi burro, que la cuesta abajo yo me la subo" |
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rgj
Hardcore
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1580
Location: The Rio Grande Valley of Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Good thread. Been away for a while, got to see the Police in Las Vegas. There was talk about how rusty they were but, let me tell you, that was one of the best shows ever!!
Anyway, back on topic.
| Francesco wrote: | Wait a minute.
I didn't read the issue, but as much as the "Elektra is a Skrull" idea sucks, it's a bit premature to say that the Elektra was a Skrull all the time. |
Like jc said, this all relates to the Miller issue. Miller is still pissed that Marvel brought back Elektra (as he should be, IMO). So, you think Miller's going to say, "Well, okay, she was only used by Marvel until Enemy of the State, so okay, I forgive you guys! (for heaven's sake, wasn't that last year?).
But, I can guarantee you that Bendis will revisit this logic he has put forth because of the obvious flaws in this Skurlektra premise. As pointed out by this board. Or, he could just accept the crap they are dishing out.
jc's point in Mission Impossible is dead on! (a crappy movie too). That scene was ridiculous in the film. It was an INTENTIONAL red herring to prevent us from not getting shocked when character X betrays the good guys. By tracing back thier steps to appease Frank Miller, Marvel is "unintentionally" doing the same. In an episode of Smallville a couple of years back, the same thing happened as with the MI movie. The opening scene is a scene with Lucy Lane (Lois's sister) in peril as some shady guys are after her in some other ski resort country. At the end of the episode it is revealed that she was actaully working with those guys and trying to get kidnapping (her kidnapping) money from Lex. Anyway, that scene was totally unnecessary and illogical. Done only to fool the audience and sell the betrayal in the end.
Look, you don't have to feel like a fanboy for wanting stoires (even fantasy stoires) to remain true to thier own rules of logic (ie. someone can't show Matt all of a sudden flying like Supes cause there was no other way for Matt to get out of some danger).
Even Brubaker had the guts and honesty to admit that he sometimes eschews logic for storytelling (like Matt wearing the tights in Europe). Any writer that say, "Oh, c'mon its a comic for God's sake, accept it." is a poor writer and a writer who is putting his own craft down.
I can respect Brubaker for admitting this. Still, that isn't a MAJOR thing like what Marvel is now putting forth, because thier illogical way of thinking has ripples in the entire MU.
rgj
p.s. Yes, jc. Elektra is still on her mountain, or wherever Miller wants her to be. I've been calling this "Elektra" a clone for years (just check this board). Who knew I would be right!!!
p.s.s. Hey, Forrest, Greg Rucka wrote some amazingly CRAPPY Elektra stories. Check out INTROSPECTION, where Elektra analyzes (and is forced to analyze) what she has become (the monster assassin she is, killing even innocents to reach her mark). She even seeks out her old mentor/sensi (no, not the one she killed in the Elektra Saga, but some old, black lady living in the projects from what I recall). Anyway, by the end of the tale you think Elektra will become "good" again, but wait, in the end she just kills again (I think Joey Q pulled the plug on the ending cause he wanted Elektra sexy and DEADLY). Geez, why would a Skrull go though that emotional rollercoaster? |
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Forrest
Lowlife
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 1439
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
p.s.s. Hey, Forrest, Greg Rucka wrote some amazingly CRAPPY Elektra stories. |
Well, then I won't rush to pick these up. Regardless, Rucka's Elektra would probably be at the bottom of my list of Rucka books to read. I am more interested in almost every other character the guy has written (e.g. Batman, Wolverine, creator-owned spy characters, etc.).
...I still love Fall from Grace as a post-Miller Elektra story. 
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james castle
Devil in Cell-Block D
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 1999
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| rgj wrote: |
Look, you don't have to feel like a fanboy for wanting stoires (even fantasy stoires) to remain true to thier own rules of logic (ie. someone can't show Matt all of a sudden flying like Supes cause there was no other way for Matt to get out of some danger). |
But my point is that Marvel, writ large, might not be the place to expect wonderful storytelling. Especially the "Marvel U"/"Avengers" side of things. I've only followed the rolling nightmare that has been Avengers Dissassembled/New Avengers/House of M/Civil War/SKRULLS! saga casually but am quite confident in my assessment that the whole thing has been garbage. Garbage piled on garbage. I actually bought House of M (mostly because, in theory, it's about mutants) and it was total crap. Civil War, from all accounts, was worse than that and I can't believe there's anyone who isn't shaking their head at this Skrulls nonsense. And Ronin. RONIN!
Basically, if you look at the Avengers centered stories from the last 3 or 4 years they've just been one big "HOLY CRAP!" event after the next. Marvel (Bendis?) is jumping from one half baked idea to the next.
To you and me all this seems a bit ridiculous. We read these things and go "what? Spider-man outed himself why?". We try to bring our critical thinking caps into these things and walk away shaking our heads. At the same time though I appreciate how kids might just love this stuff. Remember back when you were 12 or something. At that age you really just want to see Iron Man punch Captain America. And Captain America died! Holy Moly! Our reaction is "wha?" but I can only imagine the glee on the face of some 12 year old as he buys the issue "WHERE CAPTAIN AMERICA DIES!". And now Skrulls? Cool!
My point is that maybe that corner (which makes up most of) of the Marvel Universe is supposed to be like that. It's the bubblegum pop of the comic industry. It's the Britney Spears. You pointing out that The Police aren't as rusty as people say makes sense. But you can't really start critiquing the guitar work on "Hit Me Baby (One More Time)". If you do you've just sort of missed the point.
In comics, as in music, the hype and stuff blurs the line. Like when Joey Q gets up and says that he thinks Marvel is the most sophisticated line out there. It's ridiculous but it's no more ridiculous than when Britney's producers do an interview and claim that Britney had "a lot of influence on the new record" or that "the new album shows a lot of maturity on behalf of the artist". It's all just marketting nonsense. On one hand it seems to invite critical thought but when push comes to shove we all know it's not really all that serious.
Not that Marvel is all bad. Daredevil has always been off to the side. The title has a history of being edgey (and not in a Marvel Edge kind of way but actually edgey). I'd lump the best of the X-Men titles in there insofar as since Claremont the X-Men have always been a bit subversive. The Avengers though? Not really. To quote Ennis (talking about Nextwave but actually describing most Avengers-type comics) those comics are about: "It’s an absolute distillation of the superhero genre. No plot lines, characters, emotions, nothing whatsoever. It’s people posing in the street for no good reason. It is people getting kicked, and then exploding."
At some point you just have to accept it and let the kids have fun because "this is what they want".
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JC
So why can't you see the funny side?
Why aren't you laughing? |
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