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Marvel's Daredevil S1E13 Discussion
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McFly
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Joined: 27 May 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcWagz wrote:
I think they said his son was named Lee.

One of my criticisms was that there was no point of making Bob Gunton's character Leland Owlsley. The only purpose it filled was making it so that we could never have the Owl in the show. He basically just played a random criminal banker. His character could have just been a random new creation.

Hopefully "Lee Owlsley" is actually the Owl, but I don't know how they would explain his powers/mutations with no mutants in the MCU.


they already worked around it. inhumans is the magic word here. agents of shield seems to delve into that a lot lately.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcWagz wrote:
I think they said his son was named Lee.

One of my criticisms was that there was no point of making Bob Gunton's character Leland Owlsley. The only purpose it filled was making it so that we could never have the Owl in the show. He basically just played a random criminal banker. His character could have just been a random new creation.

Hopefully "Lee Owlsley" is actually the Owl, but I don't know how they would explain his powers/mutations with no mutants in the MCU.


Actually way back in his first appearance, it is mentioned that Owl was a wall Street financial adviser before he became a crime boss/super villain, so I think in a way its true to the character and really makes sense given what we have seen in the news for the last 6 years. A lot of super villains would be more dangerous if they kept their civilian jobs rather then putting on costumes and committing crimes in public.

Really Owl is not that important a figure in DD's mythos, so I really didn't mind them changing him.

Now if Owlsey Jr. comes in and is more like the Owl we see in the comics, he doesn't need to fly or have claws or an odd Wolverine style hair cut. He could just be a revenge obsessed crime boss, who doesn't care how many people he hurts in the process, he wants revenge on Kingpin and DD. That could be dangerous and would fit in better with the tone of the show then the comic book Owl would. Owlsley doesn't need all the stuff he had from the comics to be dangerous, just make more reckless then Fisk was as a contrast.
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rgj
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, that I've had time to think about it, and I may do this with every character as time goes, but I didn't really like the characterization of Wilson Fisk.

Don't get me wrong, Vincent D'onofrio , was amazing in the role. And, my feelings don't get in the way of liking the series, or even the Kingpin, if you can believe that.

I just think they went too far with his childhood and his adulthood neurosis. His motivation for being the Kingpin because he wanted Hell's Kitchen to be a better place (from what? having poor people in it) as opposed to just being a greedy, gluttonous bastard didn't really do anything for the character. If anything, it made him weaker to try to humanize his evil motivations.

I didn't like the non-confident man who couldn't talk to Vanessa at first. I didn't like this "berserker" rage thing where he would just be set off. Because that would be a man out of control. The way he killed Urich and the Russian was more like a undisciplined child. Contrast that with how he killed people in the comic, even using the baseball bat, it was just business, calm, cool and collected. A disciplined but hard man.

I don't know, I just wasn't impressed with the character. Also, I wasn't really happy that they ended it with him going to prison (yes, I know, he may get out, but still caught). Anyway, what did you guys think of the KP?

I'll probably post about each charcater soon, as I've had time to digest the binging that I went though.
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LightningandIce
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@RGJ (that's too long to just quote.)

I noticed the same thing. Kingpin in the comics was far more cold and callous. He rarely let his emotions show on his face, and was practically an emotional juggernaut. It didn't bother me that much because there were more times that felt right than felt wrong, but I definitely noticed a few missteps here and there. His introduction, watching him act like a shy little schoolboy asking a girl on a date, was kind of pathetic. I think it made up for it later, though.
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rgj
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was less offended by his lack of confidence with Vanessa than his emotional berserker lash outs. Seriously, this is a calm, cold man. An all business, emotions always in check, methodical man. I really think this Kingpin is less than his comic book counterpart. Again, still a great show.
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Dimetre
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved the characterization of Wilson Fisk. He's a fully fleshed-out character. Of course we see the fear behind his choices, but the other characters in the story only see a supremely powerful and confident man. I loved his retelling of the parable of the good Samaritan in this episode. "I am the ill intent!" Fantastic.

Seriously though, the makers of this show should have had a ban on the sentence, "I'm not the bad guy." I can't believe they used it again this episode. Somebody needs to be kicked in the head.

I would have thought Claire, who figured so large in the first half of this series, would have shown up again in this episode. Too bad she didn't.

I felt let down that Fisk approached Owsley with some questionable numbers, and Owsley admitted everything. I thought Fisk would have come up with something more solid and just beat the daylights out of him. But after everything Gao and Owsley did, he just crumbles at the sight of some incriminating evidence? Disappointing. At least he had Hoffman as insurance, and it was cool to see Fisk stand up to being tazed, but I now feel Leland's whole poison plot was very shaky.

I can believe in the costume. Maybe we'll get a DD on it for the second season. It was the press that called him Daredevil.

The climactic fight between Daredevil and the Kingpin was everything I wanted it to be. It was so great to see the billy club ricocheting off of everything.

If only there had been a ban on that stupid, stupid sentence.
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Mike Murdock
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be one of the single greatest things I've ever seen:


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Acerbus
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rgj wrote:
I was less offended by his lack of confidence with Vanessa than his emotional berserker lash outs. Seriously, this is a calm, cold man. An all business, emotions always in check, methodical man.


Remember, this is season 1. He's turning into that person. We're following him as he rises through the ranks of organized crime. First, working with others, and finally, standing alone atop the pile... then thrown into prison. The visual symbolism follows this arc. He starts out wearing black, looking at a white wall.

"Stare at this wall - and think about the man you want to be!", his father told him, moments before he murdered him in cold blood. Every morning he wakes, looks at the wall, and ponders exactly that question. White is the color of innocence. But it's also the color of calm. He looks at the white painting and calms. Vanessa, when she comes to Fisk's penthouse to relax him, and stoke his latent ambitions, is wearing white. Then she picks out his clothing... and chooses a gray suit, literally turning him a shade lighter.

When he's thrown in prison, he isn't wearing orange. He's wearing white. He's become the Kingpin. It's his final trial.

I suspect if he materializes in season 2, we'll see the more calm manipulator. We already saw him building to that. The way he broke out of FBI custody was ice cold and methodical. Vintage Kingpin.

The same goes for Daredevil. First episode, everything from his suit to his fighting style is vicious, no-frills, violent, urban. By the end? He's striking martial arts poses. He is controlled. Elegant. He's in a proper suit. He's Daredevil.
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james castle
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I watched the whole season at a "leisurely" pace and just finished it last night. So here's my thoughts on the whole thing:

The Good


Fisk. Amazing. I agree with rgj that this isn't the Fisk from the comics. Also, the Fisk from the comics is better. Also, his whole "vision for Hell's Kitchen" didn't make a tonne of sense. BUT, I found this Fisk totally engaging and his plot/plots were far and away my favorite part of the show. There were a couple times where I had a real sense of relief when the cut away from whatever boring thing Karen and Foggy were doing and back to Fisk. The "Fisk: Hammer Time" episode was the best in the series.

Vanessa. Somehow the character with the most unbelievable story arc was the most believable to me. An art dealer who, for no real apparent reason, becomes completely and utterly dedicated to a super bad dude? Sounds ridiculous in theory but the execution was perfect. There was a real sense of sort of other worldly love between Fisk and Vanessa that was just great.

Melvin Potter. I think they did a great job with him. Scary but tragic.

Owl. Also great and an unexpected source of comedy. Who knew Leland would be funnier and more endearing than Foggy? Let's hope his son steps up and is all Owly.

Wesley. Again. Great. I would have liked to have seen him be the one who tried to kill Vanessa because that would have been much more powerful. But whatever.

Costume. I love it. A "DD" would be nice but I love it all the same.

The Meh

Matt. I think he's an acceptable Matt but he's not the Matt from the comic. He's a lot younger than the Matt I'm used to. Plus, I like the "should I/shouldn't I kill" thing and it made for interesting TV but that's never been a big part of Matt's character. I would have liked to seen him struggle more with his relationship with his father and/or his relationship to violence. He seemed more than happy to torture the crap out of people (and sometimes punch them completely randomly). I would have liked to see the line be "should I be torturing random dudes?" rather than "should I kill people?". Also, in what world did he not kill Nubo?

Karen. And in what world is Karen out there killing people. I generally liked Karen but her being a killer really alters her character.

Foggy. I'm basically on the fence with him. I don't find him as annoying as other people do but I didn't love him either.

Night Nurse. Wow. That ended abruptly. I forget what episode it was (11?) but clearly somewhere there was a sticky note that said "clear the way for Matt/Karen romance". All the sudden Foggy is back in the arms of his ex and Claire drops by just to say "see ya!". I was pleasantly surprised when they started to develop a relationship between Matt and Claire. And then I was unpleasantly surprised when it was dropped like a sack of potatoes.

The Overall Plot. I haven't thought about it too, too much but some of the plot seems a little shakey. Kingpin's aims were pretty vague. Also the whole "The City/Hell's Kitchen" thing annoyed me. It's like they knew that trying to just defend Hell's Kitchen doesn't make a lot of sense so they kept fudging it by referring to Hell's Kitchen and The City interchangeably. The Deus Ex Hoffman was kinda annoying too and sort of came from nowhere. Plus, what the heck were Matt/Foggy/Karen celebrating about when Fisk was arrested? They were sitting in their office and were like "let's google Hoffman". And then Daredevil went out and captured Hoffman. Sure they represented him when he made the statement but they didn't really do anything that brought down Fisk. Daredevil did. They should have been like "wow, all that hard work! For nothing! But at least someone else cracked the case!". The Owl did more to bring down Fisk down than Foggy or Karen did.

The Bad

Doris. Wait. Why is Doris black again? I am alllllll for a black actor playing Ben. Especially since Vondie Curtis-Hall seems to have been the perfect actor for the part. He was unbelievably Urichy! So good on Marvel for making the right casting decision regardless of race. BUT, Doris is black because....Ben is black? And black people only date/marry each other? I know it's a wider trope/problem in tv and movies but I found it really jarring.

Ben (Dying). To be honest, I sort of soured on the whole series when that happened. Ben is way, way, way too important a character to die for no real reason. Ben is essential to DD's world so him dying really illustrated for me that the writers/show runner don't really get Daredevil. Which is okay. They're doing their own thing and what they made is actually really good. But Ben dying came really, really close to ruining the whole thing for me. I feel like the impact of the final episode was blunted for me because (having just watched e12) I spent half the time being bitter that Ben died and thinking about all the ramifications of that decision. Some of my favorite Daredevil moments are interactions between Ben and Matt and/or Ben alone moments. Taking him out of the equation makes me a great deal less excited about the whole thing.

So, my rating if I pretend the Ben thing never happened: 8/10.
The real rating since Ben died: 0/10.
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Ash-n-Bone
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also watched this over a week, only watching a maximum of 2 episodes a day. Here's my thoughts.

Overall an awesome show, not perfect, but really great nonetheless.

For me, it was Cox whose performance grabbed my attention. To me, he lifted Matt right off of the page.

Coming in at a close second was Vondie Curtis Hall but I've always liked him since his Chicago Hope days anyway.

I also loved Claire, and despite her absence from later episodes, thought she did an awesome job. I can't see her not appearing in any of the other upcoming shows.

Unfortunately, I found Fisk slightly disappointing and that's solely down to the deep, gravel voice D'Onofrio used, which I found a little distracting.

The costume I do not hate, but it ended up looking abit like The Flash. I love the design and even welcome the black but the actual material looked out of place in this particular world.

And my final gripe is with the end fight between Matt and Fisk. After all that great choreography in previous eps, the one fight that should have really stood out ended up being the most bland.

To sum up, for the most part, the writing, directing, acting, production design, music - everything was great and sometimes incredible. But there were few things I had issue with. So my score is 8/10.

BTW the Steel Serpent easter eggs were AWESOME, Davos is gonna kick ass!
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Dayle88
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last scene of him jumping off the building in that pose summed it up for me: incredible.

They took all the elements that make Matt one of the best characters around and put them in to their own interpretation. That's what makes successful comic book adaptions. I watched the last four episodes in one go which helped to build to the conclusion after the best episode of them all, episode nine.

My only niggle relates to the costume. At first I wasn't sure about the design but after seeing it move I like that it's form fitting but has the sections to allow him to move, it fits the MCU while still giving that classic silhouette. I wish the mask had the same line as the comics with the raised nose. Other than that it grew on me I just wish it was all red. It would of made it so much better, so much better.

Melvin said he didn't have time to finish it so I'm expecting all red and the DD at the start of season two. I was ok with the press or that policeman naming him. It fits with them calling him the devil of Hell's Kitchen and the name fits for someone taking risks like that. I would of liked for the childhood nickname to be in there but that was made up for by the priest discussing what he thinks the devil may be earlier on. That gave some real weight to Matt dealing with his internal problems with dishing out the violence.

I like Fisk's small oversight that led to his downfall. Leland and Gao were concerned about his focus and they were right. He'll never rely on anybody else again.

Overall the series was exactly what I wanted. The cast was great with Wesley getting a special mention and Charlie Cox really deserves to be celebrated. Some people think Fisk is done, I think he is just getting started as a fully fledged criminal mastermind. Hopefully it unfolds as a subplot to season two.

I hope it maintains the exact same tone for season two. Especially the fighting. Now that he has officially became Daredevil I don't want it to change because he has a costume. He should just get better at it. Hopefully they don't let the suit trap them into more traditional superhero action.

Nothing is perfect but it gets the highest possible score I can give.
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humanaccident
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loved it, loved that bthey didn't just 'do' the comics and that they changed some things.

Am I the only one who thinks that Owlsley is still alive? I think this for a variety of reasons -
1) its the only killing by the Kingpin where they didn't die directly by his hands, leaves room for ambiguity,
2) he fell to his death, did Melvin not say his suit had and aerodynamic or something quality? Might have slowed his fall?
3) his death was pointless and if he survives he could then require surgery and alter himself to make his more physically formidable as a response to his tazer not being 100% effective. So he could come back as a more threatening villan.

Also RGJ said Kingpins capture and then escape and recapture was 'pointless', I couldn't disagree more, this was vital, not only did it give us that cool scene with the biblical story but also showed us his influence runs far deeper than we thought..
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Jack Battlin
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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I loved it and I am about to finish my third round of viewing. I have no nitpicks...well maybe a couple, but for the vast majority...Hats off to the writers and producers/directors for a wonderful job. Can't wait for season 2.
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EightiesCartoon
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, my 2 cents.

Good VS bad, in descending order (respectively)….

Thumbs Up

Fisk and Vanessa – They convinced me. Wow.

The fighting – phenomenal.

Parkour – YES! Heart in mouth! How it should have looked all along!

Foggy! - I’m sure there are naysayers but I found Henson’s depiction of the character endearing.

The ‘Look’ – The accident. The black mask. The water towers. The colour scheme. The glasses. Matt’s brownstone. Urich. Fisk. The violence. Stick. Spot. On.

Night Nurse – Dawson brought some chutzpah to the series.


Thumbs Down

Urich’s death – while both Curtis-Hall and D’Onofrio are superb in the scene, resolute and menacing respectively, it was utterly unnecessary.

Karen killing – equal first. Rubs against the grain in every way.

Charlie Cox – I really want to like him, and for the most part, he’s good. I don’t think he’s Matt Murdock though. And I don’t know why yet…

‘Man without fear’ – no reference to this moniker. Season 2, perhaps? Or did I miss it?

The plot – there are holes, oh yes, there are holes…

The suit – I understand its hard replicating suits in real life, but it looks like his head is twice its normal size. And the horns look like baby antlers.

Charlie Cox’s mouth – I don’t know if anyone picked up on Mr Cox’s lip smacking but towards the end it was getting to me.
It’s petty, I know, that’s why it’s the last one on the list!
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Dave Wallace
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just finished the last episode of the series. I thought it got very strong towards the end, with the second half of the final episode in particular being very cinematic - I can't imagine a(nother) DD movie looking or feeling much different.

Overall, I've been really impressed by it, although I do think there's some truth in the suggestion that I've seen elsewhere that a slightly shorter series might have served it better (it feels like there's a bit of flab and repetition in the middle).

It got so much right, though, that I just can't complain.

I look forward to series 2, and the other Marvel Netflix outings.
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