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Frank Miller the legendary penciller?
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Is Frank Miller's art overhyped?
Yep, gimme Gene Colan
43%
 43%  [ 7 ]
No, his pencils are "visionaries" :)
56%
 56%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 16

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Lowlife


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:49 pm    Post subject: Frank Miller the legendary penciller? Reply with quote

Does Miller's art (alone) deserve all the hype or is this just carried over from his legendary writing on Daredevil?

So, I dig Frank Miller's work on DD and I think most people do. His art is great, but to me, it's all about his writing. Yet, one of the biggest vol. 1 DD books is his first appearance as strictly an artist, issue #158. The first Frank Miller TPB starts with issue 158, 158 through when he starts writing (168) are pricey books. Furthermore, I've seen a big hardcover that reprints Miller's Spider-man issues in which he only did the art.

His ability to capture the action of the moment was very good (i.e. see his fun opening credits pages). However, I feel that when compared with past DD artists, his art isn't as visionary has he gets credit for. Romita nailed the big, in your face action, and as far as I'm concerned Colan was the first Jim Lee (breathtaking realistic pencils). While not a DD artist, Jack Kirby was a master of big and dramatic before Miller came to Marvel Comics. Basically, I think all the hype about his art is leftover from his magnificent writing.
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Goddess0Whim
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to admit, i'm a little biased in the fact i own alot more stuff with Colan's pencil then Miller's pencil on it. but I LOVE Miller's writing! it's one of the things that keeps me in.
but i also like Colan's work because it seem's so effortless.
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Blind Alley
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that Miller's art brought something new in the storytelling. The number of panels in a page, the pacing of action, the framing etc. When re-read, Miller's issues might not be nice to look at but they are very worth reading, very efficient.
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Lowlife


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blind Alley wrote:
I think that Miller's art brought something new in the storytelling. The number of panels in a page, the pacing of action, the framing etc. When re-read, Miller's issues might not be nice to look at but they are very worth reading, very efficient.


Absolutely. However, I think the artwork itself isn't all that terribly special.

I agree, Miller was one heck of a DD writer!
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jimdare
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I'll chime in here with my proverbial two cents.

First off, I'd like to say that I believe Gene Colan to be one of the most original and distinctive comic book artists ever. His work on Daredevil was unquestionably great, and visionary. But it is a work that undeniably falls under the moniker:"Pre-Miller", along with any other penciller (and writer), regardless of how good-to-great their respective work was.

As for my defense of Miller, I feel a relevant context should be established,if you'll kindly indulge me:

For better or worse (I subscribe to the former),when Frank Miller came on to DD as penciller initially,and especially when he took over writing duties as well(a mere 10 issues in), he was inheriting a suffering title wallowing in moribund sales and overall lack of vitality. He single-handedly RE-vitalized, not only DD,but the entire DD universe as well, and I think comic books in general,for that matter. It was a new,modernized take on an old style. And not just an "old style" VISUALLY(at face value),but I feel perhaps more pertinently, ATMOSPHERICALLY and EMOTIONALLY within those very visuals. The style I refer to,of course, is:NOIR. And more specifiically,in terms of his visual style,Miller employed(and downright revolutionized in comics) the technique called:CHIAROSCURO, which is defined as "an immediate contrasting of light and shadow" to convey mood,tone,tension and general sense of forboding and menace in the air.

Now "Noir",as a word and concept/style, comes from the French term meaning:"black" and/or "dark". The French applied it to a new,distinctive style of American film prevalent in the '40's. Generally considered the first American Noir film was:"The Maltese Falcon". It was released in 1941,and was the directorial debut of one John Huston. The film starred,perhaps the greatest film star of his time:Humphry Bogart. Other classic "noir" films of that time are:"Double Indemnity" and "The Big Sleep"(also starring Bogart),for instance. The actual first "noir film" is generally thought to be the German horror classic:"Nosferatu"-1922,directed by F.W. Murnau. A recent film some of you may have seen depicts(with considerable deliberate liberties) the making of "Nosferatu". It starred,the always great, John Malkovich(as the obsessively-driven Murnau ) and Willem Defoe,in an amazing Oscar-nominated performance as Max Shreck,the rather "eccentric freak" who played the lead character:Count Orlock(a.k.a.-Nosferatu). This 2000 film is entitled:"Shadow of The Vampire". Check it out,if you haven't already,and I highly recommend the original 1922 classic and its outstanding 1979 remake directed by renowned German film-maker:Werner Herzog.

I don't mean to digress,but this brief history of "Noir" is important in terms of Frank Miller's place in DD's history,and comic's history,in general. What immediately distinguished "American noir" from "German noir" was the ubiquitous backdrop:the CITY-the urban/metropolitan setting;invariably as a dystopic environment. Frank Miller's vision of DD's New York perfectly fits this urban/dystopic description. The CITY itself,is a symbiotic character within the ongoing,implacable drama that is DD/Matt Murdock's universe. They(DD/Matt and the city/New York) are inseparable,for better or worse. His writing notwithstanding,Frank Miller's ART was crucial in visually conveying that very noir,dystopic and visceral atmosphere that was DD's experience as a beleaguered,but ethically-determined attorney by day,and a hardened,jaded superhero by night. And Miller put forth a genuine sense of realism and comic-book maturity heretofore unrealized in this title,particularly,and has since been dutifully emulated with varying degrees of success (and opinion,for that matter),because of Miller's overwhelming(or inescapable,for those readers annoyed and/or tired with it) influence. The present team of Bendis/Maleev undeniably continue that "noir/dystopic" tradition that started with Miller. But their respective version implies the exacerbated state of contemporary city life,coupled with the new technologies and cultural attitudes,I feel are even more sinister ,seedy and pessimism-inducing than during Miller's tenure on Daredevil,back in the more innocent late '70's/early 80's,as incredible as that may be. That said,Miller's preceding urban-metaphor of contemporary times set the stage for subsequent "offspring" to continue his original vision and expand upon it,while still paying homage in the process. So is the suggestion here:"never forget your father/s?". Picasso once said that,"artistically"(and perhaps,psychologically),one must "kill" their father. Perhaps so,in this case as well,to some. I think you can exceed "the father" without necessarily destroying his influence,and feel satisfied as an individual. That's why I feel Bendis/Maleev's present tenure is DD's new renaissance;the first since Miller. They will undoubtedly go down as one of the 2 or 3 greatest periods in the Daredevil oeuvre.

To use a musical analogy,I'd say Colan was the Elvis of Daredevil,and Miller was The Beatles,and Bendis/Maleev are the Radiohead. Each represents,counterpartly, an accurate historical period of attitude,reflection and development according to the particular pulse of their respective times.

So in the case of Colan vs. Miller,it may be simply a case of whether you're an "Elvis person" or a "Beatles person",subjectively speaking. But from a more aesthetically-objective standpoint,Elvis never had a "Sgt.Pepper" or a "White Album";just a bunch of classic singles. Colan hasn't got a "visionairies" volume yet,right? Miller has three.
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train
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post JimDare. We can always rely on you to raise the bar when it comes to posts.

Here's my two cents on Miller. The whole is greater than the sum of his parts. If you break it down strictly to art, Colan wins hands down....if Miller was trying to break into the business today (only as an artist) I think that he'd starve before he got a shot at a big company. But combine the art with his dynamic writing and you have the definitive comic book storyteller. ever.
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jimdare
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

train wrote:
Nice post JimDare. We can always rely on you to raise the bar when it comes to posts.

Here's my two cents on Miller. The whole is greater than the sum of his parts. If you break it down strictly to art, Colan wins hands down....if Miller was trying to break into the business today (only as an artist) I think that he'd starve before he got a shot at a big company. But combine the art with his dynamic writing and you have the definitive comic book storyteller. ever.


Thanks, train.

I definitely agree that "the whole is greater than the sum of his parts",in terms of Miller's overall significance;the writing,in the end,must at least go hand-in-hand with the art to get a complete "Miller experience",yet in some cases("Born Again" and "Batman:Year One",of course) Miller's art wasn't needed . However,I still stand firm on his purely artistic merits. There's no separating the art of "Ronin" from the writing. Miller's art-work in "Ronin" is arguably his finest moment as a visual/graphic artist(talk about raising the bar for modern comic art-in 1983!). And it would be hard to separate the great Miller pencils from his writing in "The Dark Knight Returns"-wish I could say the same for the sequel,but I still enjoyed the sheer anti-art cynicism therein. Cool And there is absolutely NO WAY one could conceivably visualize "Sin City" without Miller's awesome series-defining noir art-work. In fact, I would boldly say that its the art-work that surpasses the writing in "Sin City". And yet,his art in Daredevil still remains definitive,and the preserved opinion of many(I realize,not all) DD fans.

"Colan wins hands down..."? I don't know about that,train. It's debatable,at least. I remember seeing a Top 100 greatest comic book artists survey a few years back at some reputable web-site. Frank Miller clocked in at #22(I thought at the time he should have been higher;still do). Gene Colan was closely behind Miller at #25. So there you go...let the debate begin. Either way,they're both classic artists,regardless,which in the end,I assume we all agree with.

It's inconceivable to imagine a young Miller trying to break into the contemporary industry,seeing as he trail-blazed it 20 years ago and his influence is evident everywhere,thus negating said speculation. Please pardon my pedantry,but it's true is it not?
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train
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the most part, Jim, I agree with you. Miller is ,well, Miller. He's the best comic book storyteller. But my previous post was based only on Forrest's question regarding artwork only. It gets really tricky trying to separate the writing from the art...particularly in Miller's case, as they work so closely together. But ,that being said, based only on "pretty pictures" I have to give my nod to Colan.
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jimdare
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

train wrote:
For the most part, Jim, I agree with you. Miller is ,well, Miller. He's the best comic book storyteller. But my previous post was based only on Forrest's question regarding artwork only. It gets really tricky trying to separate the writing from the art...particularly in Miller's case, as they work so closely together. But ,that being said, based only on "pretty pictures" I have to give my nod to Colan.


You're absolutely correct,train, about the "trickiness" of separating Miller's writing from his art,particularly in the case of Miller's work on "Daredevil",which seems to be,at least,part of the focus and impetus for this thread's poll;while Miller's overall status from a primarily "artistic" standpoint,et al, has also been implied beyond his DD work,simultaneously.

I think some rhetorical clarification is needed here. With all due respect,train,I feel you may have inadvertently contradicted yourself when you said:"He's the best comic book storyteller. But my previous post was based only on Forrest's question regarding artwork only." Again,at the risk of coming off pedantic, I feel compelled to remind you(with no disrepect intended;only for "rhetorical clarification" purposes) that,in the interests of context, "comic book storytelling" is categorically bound(pardon the pun) by visual,sequential art. That is what comparatively separates the comic book medium from the strict,literary prose medium(and all the better for it,for us comic book fans,right?). It's as much(if not more so) a visual experience as it is a literary one;that's what makes comic books so special and distinctive an art-form.

So in the case of Miller's art-work(in Daredevil and beyond),I argue that he would simply not be the icon he justifiably became had it not been for his outstanding ability(time and again) to render such a riveting sequential story with his visual prowess as an inseparable augmentation to his considerable writing talent. They're truly one in the same,and ratifies Miller's legend.

To further fortify my arguement,in favour of Miller's visual art and its commanding influence, I direct your inwardly-visual attention and memory to David Mazzuchelli's art-work in "Born Again" and "Batman:Year One". Miller's visual influence permeates through Mazzuchelli's excellent renderings. You can especially see Miller's immediate influence on the covers of issues #228,#229 and #230 of the "Born Again" arc. Again,you see Milleresque quality immediately on the cover of #404 of "Year One",though the interiors are more consciously harping back to the Bob Kane tradition of the initial "Dark Knight" era,but still suggesting Miller's visual tuteluge. Have you ever compared Mazzuchelli's non-Miller written work with the former? There's a definite drop in,not only Miller's example,but overall quality,in general.

Moreover,I submit that Miller's work that features a clearly different art-style from another artist:"Martha Washington" and "Robocop",for instance,is usually filed under the least memorable of Miller's oeuvre;and not by accident,IMO.

So,in conclusion,I adamantly believe that suggesting Miller's art-work to be "overrated",and easily separable from his writing, to be grossly in error,from an objective standpoint . In the end,I think what we have here(is Miller's art overrated?) is clearly a case of subjective opinion and preference. And in those terms,there's,of course,nothing wrong with that-to each their own....Still,I love a good,civil debate! Thanks guys,for affording me the platform to sound off! Wink

p.s.-train,I think you hit the nail-on-the-head when you referred to Colan's art as "pretty pictures",as opposed to Miller's. Frank had mentioned in his interview on the DD-movie DVD that he had no use for "pretty";he wants the reader's "guts",hence his visceral,often brutish renderings. Colan's work is fluid and rife with dramatic romanticism,with an almost chaotic emotionalism,best exemplified in his work on "Dracula",I think. Great stuff.

Respectfully, jimdare
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ozddzealot
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

what an outstanding post jim Twisted Evil salutations and cap doffing are in order

mark
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jimdare
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ozddzealot wrote:
what an outstanding post jim Twisted Evil salutations and cap doffing are in order

mark


Very kind of you to say;cheers,mate. Smile
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Top_Quality
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to be honest..... Millers art is O.K. there really nothing too special except for the fact that he brought the darker side of things to DD and Batman but yet again those darken things i think came from his writting and the art just helped it settle.(when he did batman, he made charactors too bulky) But in the long it was him that brought the good ol' blood splatter scenes that we all enjoyed or that we all felt dirty reading it. I think what I'm try to get at is without Millers art and writting in the same book, it just wouldnt be the same
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top_Quality wrote:
I think what I'm try to get at is without Millers art and writting in the same book, it just wouldnt be the same


I disagree. I think his later "Fall from Grace" and the "Man Without Fear" stories are extraordinary and at least on par with the DD issues that he wrote and penciled, simultaneously.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimdare wrote:
Colan hasn't got a "visionairies" volume yet,right? Miller has three.


Is this a point that sales equals artistic value? I think that's a flawed arguement, especially in comics. Look at the 90's Death of Superman stuff. It sold insane numbers, but it wasn't all that special. Then, amazing stuff like Gotham Central is way down on the 100 bestseller list, if it's there at all.
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Top_Quality
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2005 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im just saying its jsut not the same not saying the books are ****
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