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Brubaker's DD vision
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Stephan
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed Matt's "ghost lawyering" at the Free Legal Clinic, Dimetre. As I recall, Matt even scored a tremendous courtroom victory over The Kingpin in this capacity. Prior to the Miller era (in DD Vol. I # 130, I believe) Matt and Foggy established a clinic aimed at serving the underprivileged. Interestingly, it was during the early stages of MILLER'S tenure that this clinic was closed (due to Foggy's financial mismanagement) and the Nelson & Murdock firm was revived (with a spanking new skyscraper address, no less). So if Matt became a "yuppie" who could not relate to the common man, Miller himself may be at fault!
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Forrest"]
Stephan wrote:


Razz

I actually thought that was a great idea. The doppleganger was great! How about when Matt couldn't detect it with any of his senses, so he flicked his own blood onto the doppleganger?! I have never seen a DD writer with better ideas and more potential than Chichester. Of course, his big downfall was often inaccessible prose in his big stories.

Honestly, I'd kill to see Chichester return to comics, even if he co-wrote with Lieberman, Brubaker, etc.


Whether the doppleganger was good enemy or not is beside the point. Using the evil DD clone to solve DD's ID problem seems contrieved to me, it smacks of "Deus Ex Machina". Oh no, a newspaper has revealed my real ID, good thing this cosmic villain, the Magus, created an evil clone of me, that I can use to fake my death. It seems silly and contrieved to me.
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Forrest
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Joined: 07 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
Why do you have misgivings about Matt's role as an Attorney?


Right now, I think it would be poor storytelling to quickly return Matt as an attorney because his been outed as DD, he's in jail essentially for being DD, he may still be prosecuted for fraud, be disbarred, etc. To adequately address these issues and simultaneously tell a good story will take a very long time before the character might even be in a position to openly practice law. A quick fix, a la DeMatteis and Kessel, is not an option if the story is to be at the calibur that we expect. ...However, if anyone can get Matt back as a practicing attorney within 12 issues, while still weaving a fantastic story, it's Brubaker.


Stephan wrote:
Do you view it as a liability to the comic? I have always looked upon it as an integral part of the character's mythos.


So, yes, right now I would view a quick (i.e. less than say 20 issues) return of Matt to official legal practice as a liability to the book.

Stephan wrote:
It gives DD a depth and substance that is sorely lacking in other comic book figures. From my standpoint, without the law, Matt is little more than costumed pugilist bent on revenge (or "Marvel's Batman").


I certainly agree! DD is the most fascinating character in mainstream comics and his profession is a huge part of that. I'm not saying a permanent change is in order, but definitely a long standing change (perhaps a few years, like Nocenti did after Born Again).

Stephan wrote:
Years ago I suggested that Vanessa Fisk could endow Matt with her estranged husband's billions, thereby enabling DD to wage his struggle (making him even more similar to Batman, interestingly). Is this (or something similar)the approach Brubaker should adopt? Just curious.


That's an interesting idea...
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephan wrote:
Hello again, Master Meg. At the close of "Fall From Grace" in DD Vol. #1 #326 (correct me if that is inaccurate, Kuljit), Matt stages his own death via the use of Hellspawn's corpse. Subsequently, in DD Vol. #1 #353 (the beginning of Karl Kesel's vastly entertaining and underappreciated tenure), Matt publicly attributes his "death" to a SHIELD operation, and abruptly resumes his legal career. In ONE PAGE - ONE PAGE - Matt's dual role was restored, and the secret identity dilemma was resolved. Interestingly enough, this explanation did not appear to arouse much controversy among DD readers at the time. My point was not that SHIELD should intervene at this juncture. I am simply noting that the "secret identity" obstacle has been EASILY surmounted in the past. Normalcy (for lack of a better term) can be restored, and it should be.

Realism? Well, as I have frequently been reminded by others, it IS just a comic book...


Well as I said to Forrest, that solution to "Fall from Grace" seems like a cop out to me. Using an evil DD clone created by Magus for DD to fake his death, smacks of "Deus Ex Machina". again if DD's ID is restored, the solution should be less of a cop out.

Also we have to consider current events in MU, Nick Fury is no loger head of SHIELD and the new director does not like DD, so it seems unlikely that SHIELD would be willing to help DD. That is why I do not think the solution in FFG would work here.

Anyone you keep on forgetting one point, that about half people DD has met already knew his ID before his ID was made public, see:

http://www.manwithoutfear.com/ddIDEN.shtml
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
Forrest wrote:


Razz

I actually thought that was a great idea. The doppleganger was great! How about when Matt couldn't detect it with any of his senses, so he flicked his own blood onto the doppleganger?! I have never seen a DD writer with better ideas and more potential than Chichester. Of course, his big downfall was often inaccessible prose in his big stories.

Honestly, I'd kill to see Chichester return to comics, even if he co-wrote with Lieberman, Brubaker, etc.


Whether the doppleganger was good enemy or not is beside the point. Using the evil DD clone to solve DD's ID problem seems contrieved to me, it smacks of "Deus Ex Machina". Oh no, a newspaper has revealed my real ID, good thing this cosmic villain, the Magus, created an evil clone of me, that I can use to fake my death. It seems silly and contrieved to me.


Yeah, I see and respect your points. Still, I thought it was a great twist. FFG was a story about change and shedding off parts of ourselves that we feel burdened by. I actually like were the story ended and I thought that was a clever plot twist/mechanism. Still, I accept that I will always be in the minority on this one. (Defending FFG is not easy. Razz)
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
Also wouldn't a lot of villains try to kill Matt just in case he is DD, I mean what do they care if their wrong, that seems like something Bullseye would do.


That's a great point. No matter what, this will ALWAYS be a problem for Matt. From a legal or majority opinion standpoint, the cat may be put back in the bag, but a good number of people, including psychotic murders will always 'know' the truth and Matt's friends will always pay.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
The Master Meglomaniac wrote:
Also wouldn't a lot of villains try to kill Matt just in case he is DD, I mean what do they care if their wrong, that seems like something Bullseye would do.


That's a great point. No matter what, this will ALWAYS be a problem for Matt. From a legal or majority opinion standpoint, the cat may be put back in the bag, but a good number of people, including psychotic murders will always 'know' the truth and Matt's friends will always pay.


Exactly, not including the goofy villains, most DD villains are total psychopaths, can you imagine Bullseye, Bushwacker, Typhoid Mary, Mr. Hyde, Owl, Purple Man or Mr. Fear, for example, caring that they killed an innocent person by mistake? Of course they wouldn't, so why wouldn't they try to kill Murdock just to cover all their bases. You have to wipe the minds of these villains to stop them from doing it.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. However, Matt is pretty much always prepared for an attacker due to his super senses. The real impact of this villians always making Matt a target is killing/hurting Matt's non-superhero friends, lovers, clients, etc.

Aside from super-powered freaks, think of everything that Kingpin did to Matt in Born Again.
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:
Yep. However, Matt is pretty much always prepared for an attacker due to his super senses. The real impact of this villians always making Matt a target is killing/hurting Matt's non-superhero friends, lovers, clients, etc.

Aside from super-powered freaks, think of everything that Kingpin did to Matt in Born Again.


That's true, but if Matt is able to hold any attacks from super villains that are attacking him, that will just confirm their suspicions and then they will really go on the offensive. Frankly I think the direct super villain attacks on Matt have been sorta low. So far besides the Kingpin and his posse (Bulls and T Mary) the only super villain who have attacked Murdock for revenge are Mr. Hyde, everyone else was either just making a power play for Hell's Kitchen and just wanted to get him out of the way (Yakuza, Owl and Jigsaw) or were just hired to take out Murdock for someone else (Nitro in Underboss).

I mean some villains who have a grudge against DD say Purple Man or Bushwacker have not really made a direct attack him and I don't believe Stilt-Man's arguement that their afraid of him, most of the guys I mentioned in my other post are stone cold psychos, they are too arrogant or insane to be afraid of anything. Stilt-Man is not a psycho so it makes sense that he be afraid of DD, but the two guys I have mentioned above, just for example, they would not be scared of DD. Plus if a bunch of villains jumped Matt at once, he would be in trouble.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plus, think of all the Mark David Chapmans, previously unknown everyday psychos out there who will try to kill DD/Matt just for the glory (and their own mental insanity).

Not only supervillains with grudges, but just any supervillain who is crazy and violent enough.
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fox_limbo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't mind, I'm going to go back to the original topic for just a short moment.

Hmm. Brubaker's vision of Daredevil.

Well, where should I start?

I keep trying to tell myself that Ed Brubaker has only penned a handful of issues, at this point. And I'm not sure if my views are premature, or not. But, dammit, in my mind Brubaker has already reached the Pantheon of Daredevil scribes!!

Brian Michael Bendis, whether you care to admit it or not, had planted the seeds. And with that, I feel Ed Brubaker will till the garden. He is well on his way with re-defining Daredevil and ushering in a new rennaissance of the character.

I was hoping that Matt's time in prison would not be a footnote in the mythology (and, yeah, it may), but Brubaker has handled this tangent, handed to him by Bendis at his own choosing, with such deft and passion in his storytelling. Matt being in prison may become a "blip on the radar" within the context of the entirity of the Daredevil mythology, within Ed's character-development of Matt Murdock, it appears the not-so-friendly confines of Rykers has / will leave its mark (but not necessarily "change him", per si). It's a cliche, I know, but it still rings true. Prison changes a man. And I think Ed Brubaker has balanced this razor's edge remarkably well.

I don't think it would be as easy as Stephan suggests, to snap Matt Murdock back into "normalcy"; esspecially given the way Matt's "outting" has been handled and given the climate of the Marvel Universe, as a whole, with the "Civil War" garbage.

For me, I would like to see Matt elected into office (perhaps as District Attourney). And, yeah, maybe that would scream "Ex Machina"; but the idea still resonates with me. I feel it would work with this specific character. I really do. It was hinted at in Bendis's run and I think, given the events, it would be the next logical step. Matt would be transcended into office as "a guardian of the people" and he would cathartically rebuild himself and his spirit during his tenure in office as the D.A. But that's just me.

I really don't think you can put Matt back behind the laquored mahagoney desk as an attourney as quickly as Stephen suggest.

And I still don't believe Foggy is dead!!

Now, you may return to your regularly-scheduled conversation of Matt having an orgy with super villains, already in progress...
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed on all points, fox_limbo!

Long before Brubaker started on DD, I gushed on and on about how I think that his first year as DD scribe will be DD work paralleled by only the greatest DD work, including Born Again. I think in the very near future, Brubaker will consistently be considered among fans to be in the top 3 or 4 DD writers ever (along with Nocenti, Miller, and Bendis). I think even those of us who have been reading and loving Brubaker's DD issues are going to be blown away by what's to come. There is no one that u would rather have writing DD, right now!

(Of course, as much as I love Lark, I'm still dying to have Jim Lee pencil the DD ongoing! Razz)
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The Overlord
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox_limbo wrote:
I don't think it would be as easy as Stephan suggests, to snap Matt Murdock back into "normalcy"; esspecially given the way Matt's "outting" has been handled and given the climate of the Marvel Universe, as a whole, with the "Civil War" garbage.

For me, I would like to see Matt elected into office (perhaps as District Attourney). And, yeah, maybe that would scream "Ex Machina"; but the idea still resonates with me. I feel it would work with this specific character. I really do. It was hinted at in Bendis's run and I think, given the events, it would be the next logical step. Matt would be transcended into office as "a guardian of the people" and he would cathartically rebuild himself and his spirit during his tenure in office as the D.A. But that's just me.

I really don't think you can put Matt back behind the laquored mahagoney desk as an attourney as quickly as Stephen suggest.

And I still don't believe Foggy is dead!!

Now, you may return to your regularly-scheduled conversation of Matt having an orgy with super villains, already in progress...


I don't think Matt has a hope in Hell in getting elected as DA. Before Out, I think it could have happened, but now, no way. The city would not want want the unwanted media attention having Matt as a DA would bring, I mean now he is behind bars, facing charges and disbarment, its a little hard to go from that to being Da. Plus DD has broken the law many times (suing the Globe for printing a true story is fraud and trying to break into the lawyer's office to get Murdock Papers was illegal.) Unless there is a major change in DD's status, I can't see him getting elected as DA and that's not even factoring in the anti super hero feelings amongst the public because of Civil war.

Also the super villain stuff is on topic, one direction Brubaker can go is to have more super villains in the title (he did say there would be more action and swashbuckling). I mean something like Brubaker's Gotham Central was gritty and down to earth, but it had super villains as well and handled them in a realstic manner. Besides it make sense that a lot of super villains would go after DD after "Out" and I doubt any of the psycho villains would be too scared of him to try it. Now during Civil war a certain super hero revealed his secret ID and as a cover for an upcomming Civil War issue shows, said hero was gang jumped by a whole bunch of villains, realstically that's what should have happened to DD.
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Clayton Blind Love
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forrest wrote:

(Of course, as much as I love Lark, I'm still dying to have Jim Lee pencil the DD ongoing! Razz)


You'll be waiting for All Star Daredevil then.

Miller will have a young Matt eating rat sandwiches in the boiler room of his apartment building an hour after his father's death.

This, of course, will be described with the gorgeous pencils of Jim Lee over the course of 4 issues in a 10 month period.

Wink

C.
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Forrest
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clayton Blind Love wrote:
Forrest wrote:

(Of course, as much as I love Lark, I'm still dying to have Jim Lee pencil the DD ongoing! Razz)


You'll be waiting for All Star Daredevil then.

Miller will have a young Matt eating rat sandwiches in the boiler room of his apartment building an hour after his father's death.

This, of course, will be described with the gorgeous pencils of Jim Lee over the course of 4 issues in a 10 month period.

Wink

C.


Tangent!!!: Razz

I cannot stand All-Star Batman!!! If a lesser artist was on the book, then I could just ignore it like I do all the other big time misses from egotistical has been writers. Well I still ignore it (by not buying it), but the first three issues which I did read drove me nuts because Jim Lee's art is amazing and yet the story sucks so bad! It's like Star Wars Episode One only far worse! It hurts me to see Jim Lee on such an abysmal title... I'll go read Hush again to make myself feel better. Razz
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